.357 Contact Distance Underpenetration?

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Chindo18Z

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Once aided a man after he attempted to shoot himself (while seated behind steering wheel of his car) thru the heart (he missed).

S&W Model 27, 6" barrel, .357 158 grain Remington JSP: 1 shot thru sternum area...muzzle contact wound. He was still conscious and verbally regreting actions. Entrance wound only, little bleeding, NO exit wound. He died about 15 minutes later on an EMS life flight helicopter.

I remember being amazed at that particular weapon/ammo combo not causing a thru-and thru GSW and then passing (at least) thru the driver's seatback.

That particular incident has for years muddied my thinking about handgun overpenetration and caliber effectiveness in general.

Even powerful calibers won't get through a human body every time...food for thought.
 
"Even powerful calibers won't get through a human body every time."


Exactly.

Which is why - as with another high energy cartridge, the 10mm AUTO - the bugaboo of "overpenetration" is way overblown.

The greatest danger to innocent bystanders from shots fired defensively comes from those rounds that MISSED their intended target.
 
Punching through the sternum is asking a lot of handgun ammunition. The .357 Mag got the job done in the end in your story. Given what happened, some rounds may not have been lethal or even penetrated more than skin given the shot location.
 
The greatest danger to innocent bystanders from shots fired defensively comes from those rounds that MISSED their intended target.
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Amen! I'm sure if a bullet completely penetrated a person, it wouldn't have enough momentum to do a great deal of damage 99% of the time, anyway.
 
agtman,

We definitely need to remind people of that more often. Some seem to be over obsessed with the whole overpenetration thing and the way some people talk you'd think a bullet somehow becomes MORE dangerous once it has passed through someone!

brad cook
 
My GUESS would be that because it was point blank it didn't have the chance to pick up any velocity........I still wouldn't want to be shot with a 357....or anything else for that matter......but that's why we don't carry single shots...one shot stops are awesome...but don't count on them.....shot placement followed by shot placement on your second shot.....this is why I'm thining about changing my CCW to an auto from a revo.....more rounds......I'd hate to run out of shots(although most gun fights only last a few shots,unless you're a LEO)..it's a toss up I guess....for now I'm saving money for a CCW auto...choices are good......anyway..........the velocity thing is my final answer....:cool:
 
My GUESS would be that because it was point blank it didn't have the chance to pick up any velocity
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Like....a round gains velocity.....after it leaves......the barrel??????????
this is why I'm thining about changing my CCW to an auto from a revo.....more rounds
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Like, man.....I can miss more......with an auto? ;)
 
Like....a round gains velocity.....after it leaves......the barrel??????????
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Yeah, not what I learned in physics...:D

Seriously, though, I'm surprised the gas discharge didn't create a horrible wound all by itself. I would think that volume and pressure would literally blow a huge hole in the chest cavity.
 
.357 158 grain Remington JSP: 1 shot thru sternum area...
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The sternum is a fairly tough chunk of bone, I expect the bullet hit it and expanded to maximum diameter, so it never had a chance to overpenetrate. Had the shot gone through or between ribs, it would have likely been a different story.


I'm surprised the gas discharge didn't create a horrible wound all by itself.
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A great portion of the gases would have escaped through the barrel-cylinder gap.
 
I think stans got it right.

Yes the sternum is tough as are most bones, but it is also a long flat bone. I don’t think it would be any more disruptive to a bullets preformence than a rib.

Humans are tough, and tissues vary greatly throughout the body. Add bones of various shapes and sizes into this mix and I’ll take FMJ nearly all the time.

Ideally my chosen carry ammo would pass completely through the body and all internal organs, bones and tissues before finally lodging in the skin (which is fairly tough and needn’t be penetrated) on the back side.

BTW: Interesting story.

Dan
 
A great portion of the gases would have escaped through the barrel-cylinder gap.
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And an even greater portion won't! :what:

454_flash.jpg

photo courtesy P95Carry/Chris 2003
 
I ain't no good at them Physics......................................................like I said just a guess.......................................................................:neener:
 
A flat-nosed, expanding bullet hit a wide, flat surface with a fair amount of "give" to it (technical physics term :p ). Push you your sternum and you will see what I mean. If it hit something more rigid like the skull or a rib, it might have blasted the bone to bits and kept on going.

And yes, this is all idle speculation. :D
 
Some seem to be over obsessed with the whole overpenetration thing and the way some people talk you'd think a bullet somehow becomes MORE dangerous once it has passed through someone!
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I suppose that would depend on what the dirtbag who was shot was infected with. :)
 
One final question... do you still have the M27?
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Never mine to have; everything went to police evidence room.

Kinda sad really...The brand new weapon, ammo, and a cleaning kit were laid out on the front seat (along with receipt) in an attempt to make scene look like a "cleaning accident". This in an effort to leave a large life insurance payout to wife & children. I heard about that part later.

But I can guarantee that that M27 was only fired once...
 
Oh boy.....idle speculation....can I play too?

My guess is that the round hit the sternum and mushroomed fairly quickly, then it had to plow completely through the torso rapidly losing velocity, where it was stopped by the rather stout spinal column.

Regards,
Happyguy
 
A great portion of the gases would have escaped through the barrel-cylinder gap
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Some, for sure, but not much. I wonder how much? Does anyone have any numbers on the % of pressure vented out the b/c gap? Obviously, it's going to vary with the gap. I've got samples all the way from barely .001 to .008" or more.

Gotta go check Hatcher's Notebook, this is the kind of wacky info he sometimes collected...
 
In idle speculation, no one has ever mentioned the bullet path--everyone has just assumed it was straight from front to back. Was the bullet deflected (spine, penetrating the sternum,etc.) and actual penetrated much further than everyone has assumed. Bullet sometimes (often) take strange paths once they hit the body.
 
Have we varified that it was a magnum load? Might it have been a .38 spl? There would be considerable difference between a 1.400 fps and 800 fps encounter.
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Most definitely a .357 load.

Had it been a .38 I wouldn't have been suprised. I've seen .38 Special bounce off of sheet metal auto bodies and even old appliances used as targets. Obviously these metal surfaces are not flesh, but .38 is not exactly hell on penetration (without stiff loads).
 
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