.357 mag/.38 vs .223

[firearms_instructor]

What about 7.62x39?

chris in va said, "What about 7.62x39?"

It's cheap and easy to find, as the AK rifles that fire it, and those rifles are low-maintenance to boot, where do they fit in this discussion?

I wish I had bought one when they were selling them for $200 with 1K rounds included.

 

[Brett Byers AKA Slow]

I suppose it depends how far you planning on shooting....I would go with a .357 in a lever action of 18.5 to 20" barrel. If you don't reload look at OSCommerce or Buffalo Bore 158 grain Gold dots. I believe 2150 fps out of 18.5" barrel. Go to Beartooth Bullets for Ballistic info and foot lbs of energy trumps .223 55 grain @3050 fps at the muzzle.The larger bullet at 100 yds would be devasting on anything not wearing body armor. The .357 158 grain Gold Dot properly placed would take any animal in the lower 48. Col. Wesson took Moose, Elk and Bear with a .357 158 Grain lead bullet from the then new S&W .357 8 3/4" revolver at 100 yds.. Bullet was traveling at 1520 fps at the muzzle. Placement is imperative

 

[quatin]

Another thing to consider. Do note that Savage offers 26'' 1 in 9 twist barrels in their .223 rifles. With the long barrel you can supposedly shoot the 70+ grain bullets well. Mine handles 69gr the best. I've yet to try 70+ grain though, but that will significantly increase your range with a .223.

 

[JimmerJammerMrK]

Great information. What about the .44 mag vs the .357 mag?

 

[ArmedBear]

.44 Magnum will kick a good bit more, and you can't buy bulk remanufactured ammo for nearly as cheap as .38 or even .357. Even if you load it yourself, it'll cost more.

If you want to hunt pigs, that's one thing, but if you want to plink, it seems the .357/.38 is a much better choice.

 

[Gohon]

Winchester lists their 30-30 150 grain silvertip at 2390 fps. Even the 170 grain is marching along at 2200 fps. Handloaders can easily exceed even these speeds. I'm not arguing with you but the .357 case cannot possible hold enough powder to out shoot the superior BC 30-30 bullet. It's a good sales gimmick but it simply isn't true. My 1894C is my favorite gun to carry and I've taken many deer and hogs with it but, reality sets in when I want something that shoots a little flatter, harder, and farther which case I reach for my Marlin 336 in 30-30. If the game dictates something even bigger I go up from there.

 

[TimboKhan]

I see the .38 special/.357 gun as cheaper to shoot than the .223

This isn't true in this neck of the woods. I can get .223 for roughly 4 bones/20, and .38/.357 is about 12 bucks/50. Not a enormous difference, but .223 is still cheaper.

 

[B.D. Turner]

I own a Marlin 1894 in .44 magnum and a 336 in 30-30. I would like to get an 1894 in .38/.357 just because I don't reload (admit I should) and ammo is much cheaper than the .44 or 30-30.
You can shoot .38's in the .357 this is what makes this rifle so great for plinking. .38 Special 158gr RNL shoot great in an 1894 and are about as cheap as you can get buying new.

 

[Deaf Smith]

While I like the .357 mag rifles and the 5.56 rifles, it would depend on what I'm using for primarly. Buffalo Bore .357 ammo gets a 158gr JSP at 2200 (and that ain't hay) and is good for deer. The 5.56, while a somewhat deer round (I've taken one with it) it's still more of a combat round.

Both will do for SD and both will do for hunting, but each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

 

[ArmedBear]

Gohon-

Nobody ever said that the .357 can outperform the .30-30 when both are loaded to their best. We weren't arguing that, so no worries.

However, commercial .357 ammo is available, albeit not for cheap, from Buffalo Bore, that will make it a respectable deer round, probably the equal of the .30-30 ammo that people have used for years, at least out to 100 yards.

It doesn't shoot as flat, etc. It's not a .30-30.

The point is simply that a .357 lever gun is a fine plinker with low recoil and cheap ammo. It's a functional small game gun. And it will work as a deer gun, defensive carbine, camp gun, ranch/farm gun, etc., too.

It's a really versatile piece.

It's not a .30-06; it's not a .22-250. But it's a great little gun.

 

[tube_ee]

I would only correct

"functional small game gun" to "great small game gun." Target wadcutter .38 Specials are more accurate than most of us can shoot, and anchor a rabbit or squirrel RIGHT NOW, without tearing up too much meat.

The .357 carbine is one of those products that you don't realize how cool it is until you own one.

If you had to pick a three-gun armory, you could do a lot worse than a 4" .357, a Marlin 1894C, and your favorite bird gun. Not that that's really relevant to this thread.

--Shannon

 

[Gohon]

ArmedBear, I agree with everything you said. I love my little Marlin .357 and I probable shoot it more than anything else now. I have no problems using it on deer out to 100 yards with proper loads and the right circumstances. What I was responding to was

".357 in a carbine can be loaded to .30-30 energy levels".

The operative words being "energy levels" and "loaded", not store bought ammo. Like I said, I'm not arguing how bad the .357 in a rifle is but how good it is with limitations. I just don't want anyone making it out to be something it isn't, because as sure as you do there will that person that thinks it is a 200 yard gun just because someone else said they use their 30-30 out to 200 yards and they read the .357 is as good as the 30-30.

Truth is I've never used the Buffalo Bore ammo so it is wrong of me to say they are not truthful but you have to admit the speeds they give for the 158 and 180 grain bullets sure raises a eye brow. I'm loading 180 grain hard cast lead with gas checks and Hornady 180 grain XTP's and I can't get enough powder of any kind in there to reach the speeds they claim. Sure would like to know what they are using........ a little nitro maybe.

 

[AStone]

I could not express my feelings about
this issue better than Tube_ee,
so I'll just quote.

After I pay off the SW 65 in layaway,
next for me is an 1894C.

Nem

1. You can get a nicer .357 levergun (or pump) for your money than a .223. The Savages are fine guns for the money,
but the Marlin 1894 is (to me) clearly a better-built gun. That's just me, and I'm heavily biased toward blue steel and wood.

2. Muzzle energy is only part of the equation. Bigger heavier bullets tend to exceed their paper ballistics in terms of effect on target. Comparing wounding potential across a big disparity in either bullet diameter or weight is quite difficult. So difficult, in fact, that nobody's ever done it well. Energy comparisons tend to work best when these two factors are very close. .308 to .30-06 to .300 Magnum, for instance.

3. The .357 leverguns are about as handy as rifles get. Light, great in the hand, point like a nice bird gun, shoot like a big .22. Everybody who has ever shot mine loved it. In this regard, I prefer my Marlin to any .223 I've handled. Even the AR-style guns aren't as lively is the 1894. I find pistol grips to be quite "slow", handling-wise. In between a high-comb Monte Carlo and a thumbhole. Nothing's quicker in my hands that a straight stock.

4. Leverguns are just cool.

 

[bamabluesman]

.357 cheaper to shoot than .223?

I'm not a reloader so I can't speak for that. But I just looked in my cabela's catalog and .357 wad cutters are 27.5 cents a round and .223 55gr fmj is 19.5 cents a round. You can get .308 for what the .357 cost and do some 1000 yard plinking. Pistol rounds belong in pistols. If you want a rifle get a rifle.

 

[JustsayMo]

One advantage of 357 vs 223 in Washington at least, is that 357 is LEGAL to hunt deer with. 223 is NOT.

 

[High Planes Drifter]

I'm not a reloader so I can't speak for that. But I just looked in my cabela's catalog and .357 wad cutters are 27.5 cents a round and .223 55gr fmj is 19.5 cents a round. You can get .308 for what the .357 cost and do some 1000 yard plinking. Pistol rounds belong in pistols. If you want a rifle get a rifle..

Shop around, .38 plinking ammo can be found in the same "ballpark" as 9mm. I've found .38 for $6.00 per 50. Cabelas is overpriced IMO.
I have a question for the .357 lever afficiondo's - Do you guys ever encounter trouble shooting .38's (Im refering to the difference in overall cartridge length)? Do the rounds ever get hung up, or have you ever had ftc's ?

 

[quatin]

Locally, I can find ridiculously rare boxes of imported steel cased .223 for ~$4 - $5 for a box of 20. The next closest option is domestic reloaded running ~$8 for a box of 20. After that it skyrockets. I currently pay $20 for a box of 50 reloaded .223s.

I can find all sorts of reloaded .357 for about $11 a box of 50 and .38sp for about ~$9 a box of 50. Price wise it's the .38/.357 hands down unless all you want to do is shoot wolf at 6 moa at 100 yards.

 

[ArmedBear]

Sure would like to know what they are using

I believe they are using powder that's not off-the-shelf.

If they were just loading up what we could easily throw together with a Rockchucker, they couldn't charge so much for it.

Of course, I don't care if I have to pay more for a box of deer-hunting ammo. I wouldn't use it for anything else, and doe tags are a lottery here, so deer hunting doesn't translate to more than a box, including sight-in rounds and leftovers for next year.

115grfmj says he's chronographed their loads and that they perform as advertised or better. Ask him for more details.

 

[JustsayMo]

High wrote: "I have a question for the .357 lever afficiondo's - Do you guys ever encounter trouble shooting .38's (Im refering to the difference in overall cartridge length)? Do the rounds ever get hung up, or have you ever had ftc's ?"

My 1894c didn't like SWC 38's but would feed 357 SWC. Other than that, RN, RNFP, JHP and JSP cycled just fine as 38s or 357.

 

[115grfmj]

Armed Bear

I have chronied their rounds (well not the 125's anyway), but the 158gr's, and the 180 grain hardcast....since those are in the Hunting range. Each time with out fail the rounds performed as adv. most were slightly faster, or dead on.......none.......I repeat none....were slower. I honestly, don't know what they use, I imagine it is some kind of custom powder. I know that you can almost get there anyway with Hodgon's LIL'GUN powder. I also feel that if I'm taking it hunting....it doesn't matter what a box costs, as long as I have the best rounds, it'll probably be with me for a few seasons. How many rounds do you fire during a season.

Any way, I took florida hog with it two years ago, using the 180gr BB stuff. Shot was 90 yards quartering on, complete penetration, round was not recovered. The hog ran exactly 2yds, and dressed out at I believe 317lbs.

 

[ArmedBear]

How many rounds do you fire during a season

Depends on how much they cost.

With a .22LR, if there aren't any rabbits, there's always something to shoot at if you get too bored.

But not at $1.50 a pop.

I do hear from people who shoot 10 deer in a season, but here, I didn't SEE 10 deer last season, none of them were bucks, and I had a buck tag only.

So the box of .30-06's I started with, I finished with. All 20 still in there, brand spankin' new, though five of them have been in and out of the rifle magazine a few times.

 

[AStone]

This is a really useful discussion, coming at a time when my tool kit is undergoing some extensive revisions.

Although I'm certain that a .223 is not in the cards for this kit - at least, any time soon (I never say never anymore), the comparisons being made and data being offered are useful to me in learning more about why an 1894C is going to be one of my integral - and perhaps most used - tools soon.

Thanks to all for the discussion and ideas.

Nem

 

[JimmerJammerMrK]

This is a really useful discussion...Thanks to all for the discussion and ideas.

I couldn't agree more. It seems like I'll probably be going with the carbine, since it is cheaper, generally cheaper to shoot, and I can't see myself doing any shooting outside 100 yards. Still, I can't decide between the .357 and the .44. The .44 is a bigger bang, but I don't know if I can justify it when I could be target shooting with .38's and saving money (the thing is though, the .44 mag ammo isn't that expensive).

 

[AStone]

JJ, remind us, please, of your main uses for this rifle.

HD/SD? Hunting? (If so, what?) Range/plinking? Other?

And, do you already own, or do you want to buy, a handgun in either .357 Mag or .44 Mag?
If so, that should influence your decision.

One reason I've decided to add an 1894C is that I own a SW 65 (bringing it home from lay away tomorrow ).
I want the carbine to complement that.

Nem

 

[JimmerJammerMrK]

It will mostly be a range/plinking gun, but I am also interested in it for home defense, as it will be, for now, my only firearm.

Some day I will own a handgun, although I doubt my first one will be a revolver.