.357 Magnum: 125gr JSP vs JHP

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GreyAwakened

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Hi guys!

One thing that I've been wondering, is that why isn't the 125gr JSP more often considered as a good self-defence round option?

If you look at a FirearmsTactical picture:
125gr JSP in gelatin

- it penetrates 14.17" inches and expands into 0.72" nicely.

To me that sounds perfect. And 125gr JSP rounds are cheap and plentiful.

What more does 125gr JHP rounds have to offer?

Thanks ...
 
they transmit/dump energy faster into the medium and expand more reliablely.

my personal choice in the .357 mag is the CCI 140gr JHP
 
hmm ...

But if you dump the energy faster into the target, doesn't that mean that the bullet has to expand more?

And if it expands more, or faster, wouldn't that limit it's penetration?

According to what I've read 14" should be pretty optimal. So with JHP that expands more, you get less than optimal penetration.

Also, how do you know that the JHP's expand more reliably than JSP's?

I've understood that JHP's expand maybe only 50% of the time when shot into clothed gelatin, since the clothes fill the nose cavity. JSP's don't have that failure possibility. JSP's are simpler in design, plus they've been around for decades.

Just wondering.
 
(all of this only relates to the original question asked, please don't try to being up a damn rifle round as an argument)

Because a fully jacketed HP will retain its energy longer due to the retained mass. The JSP has a tendancy to either split apart and/or wipe too much lead as it travels. Strictly speaking the JSP and JHP will penetrate about the same all things being equal.

"But if you dump the energy faster into the target, doesn't that mean that the bullet has to expand more"

No, there are several reasons why energy is lost and expansion is only one of them. Energy can be lost through seperations, or just plain contact. True that an expanding HP will dump more energy as it is expanding, though that is just the effect of result, not the other way around.

"Also, how do you know that the JHP's expand more reliably than JSP's?"

Mainly it has to do with gel tests and real world results/feedback. While you line of thinking is right on the money that a JHP's nose can get cloged and a JSP cannot, the JHP is more likely to stay on course through a soft body and expand where as the JSP can be deflected aside and/or nose wipe rather than expand

"I've understood that JHP's expand maybe only 50% of the time when shot into clothed gelatin, since the clothes fill the nose cavity. JSP's don't have that failure possibility. JSP's are simpler in design, plus they've been around for decades."

They sure can, but with the advent of newer bullets like the Power ball and others these concerns are being put to rest. None the matter, think of it this way, if you are provoked and have to use your firearm in defense either one will still put your target to the ground. The bullet in a (lets exclude the PCP stories here) badguy does not have to expand its full potential to incapacitate him. If your shot were going to hit a vital, it still will no matter if the bullet expands or not. I know we'd all like our bullets to open up as much as possible, but they don't 100% have to, to be effective. If nothing else, find a JHP and a JSP that shoot accuratly and stack the cylinder. In other words, load 1/2 JHP and 1/2 JSP.
 
125 gr is too light anyway. 158 gr JSPs don't have enough velocity to expand right. A well designed 145 or 158 gr JHP or SJHP is your best bet in .357 mag. I wish Remington made a 145 or 158 gr Golden Saber.
 
I can only speak from a narrow range of knowledge, but the 125 JHP's are WAYYYYY better than the JSP's for making pumpkins explode.

:D
 
I used the 158 grain Gold Dots from Speer in my Taurus and they never made me feel undergunned. They had a muzzle velocity of 1235 and had significant sectional density to maintain mass at impact. I am a proponent of heavier bullet at more conservative velocities. Definitely not a member of the 4000+ fps club.

Gold Dot® - 357 Magnum

Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
158 GDHP 20 .168

Velocity (in feet per second) 1235 (at muzzle)

Energy (in foot pounds) 535 (at muzzle)
 

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The 125's are too light for what? Certainly you mean hunting or target, for SD applications the 125g with a good bullet is perfect.

So you mean a bullet which will not stop a 180 pound deer fast enough for a humane kill will stop a 180 pound perp hopped up on meth? Don't make no sense to me. If anything, you want deeper penetrating bullets for defense than you do for hunting. If hunting, you can wait for a better angle. In a defensive shooting, nope.
 
Trying to compare animals to humans does not work. Usually when a human is hit with a projectile as large as a .357 with over 350-400 Ft-Lbs of energy the initial shock stops them, they may recover, but it leaves more than enough time to fire another shot into the vital areas. More often than not the initial shot will drop them to the ground, this is due to the way humans react to high shock injury. Where a deer will run like hell, a human will usually hit the deck. Now enter things like PCP and it's family, and this becomes less of an issue and they will tend to fight back. But as I said in my initial post, for the discussion I have left that variable out.

The problem with heavier bullets and humans is that they tend to pass all the way through. Now even if you are not concerned about hurting anyone behind them, you have not dumped all the energy of the bullet into the body. That is not to say that heavier bullets are bad, just not as efficient (no not effective). When hunting we prefer to have a through and through shot since it will leave a better trail to track (two holes = more blood loss). Obviously we don't need this with a human target.

With all that being said, we've hijacked the thread. All GreyAwakened wanted to know was if the JSP was better than the JHP.

On the other side of things, for those that don't like as much recoil, the 125g has a little less recoil and may allow the gun to come back on target a little quicker. (That is all conjecture and mainly depends on the shooter, it is just as easy to master the 158g or even the 180g)

AND! Beyond all of this, so you folks know where I stand, I carry a S&W 1006 loaded with 165g Golden Sabers pushed at almost 1400FPS. All my shots will punch right through, but I can almost say 100% that 1-2 shots center mass will drop just about anyone at 5-10 feet. 10mm hole in 10" hole out
 
There is no such thing as "shock" that's going to "stun" a person. Even if you believe Michael Courtney, the "shock" mechanisms are identical between deer and humans.

The real reason that humans drop when shot is because either a: being shot hurts (deer will do almost the same thing; ever see a deer's knees buckle right after the shot, before it takes off? They just have a higher pain threshold), or b: they've watched too many movies and are conditioned into believing that people that are shot will drop dead on the spot.

But there's the people that barely even notice they were shot. Like the guy that was shot with 10 .45s, and said it felt "like bee stings."
 
There is no such thing as "shock" that's going to "stun" a person. Even if you believe Michael Courtney, the "shock" mechanisms are identical between deer and humans.

I prefer to describe our observations as a "pressure wave" mechanism because this can be defined more precisely than "shock." A pressure wave is simply the force per unit area that would be measured by a high speed pressure gauge. The term "shock" is imprecise and unquantifiable and while it may be used by the less informed to describe a pressure wave effect, ascribing the term to me creates a strawman fallacy.

We can show that the pressure wave mechanisms are similar between deer and humans and other similarly-sized mammals. However, it would be quite a stretch to conclude that the mechanisms are "identical" between different species. Whether the deer have a higher threshold for pain or can continue to be mobile with a higher level of neural pressure wave injury is a matter yet to be investigated. We have a high confidence level that incapacitation of both deer and humans involves (involuntary) mechanisms of neural injury in addition to whatever voluntary responses to pain may be present. We expect the involuntary effects of neural injury to be more similar between species than the voluntary effects due to pain.

Michael Courtney
 
So you mean a bullet which will not stop a 180 pound deer fast enough for a humane kill will stop a 180 pound perp hopped up on meth?

I'm quite sure than ANY deer I were to shoot at 7.5 yards square in the boiler room with a 125 grain hollow point is going to drop, even shoulder hit. A perp is face on at close range, not 80 yards at a quartering angle. The amount of body to penetrate is a lot less and the animal is more thin skinned than even a deer.

If only broadside shots to 75 yards are taken, the 140 grain JHP is a great deer hunting bullet in the .357. The 125 grainer does expand a bit rapidly for quartering angle shots where a lot of animal must be penetrated, bone and flesh. the 125 grain JHP is a self defense load, and, as I said, the standard to which all others are judged. Even factory loads, not particularly hot, make around 550 ft lbs out of a four inch barrel. I've loaded handloads pushing 1475 fps for over 600 ft lbs from a 4" barrel and it was relatively light, could go hotter. Lot of flash bang in that load, though.
 
Well, at least according to Fackler, hydrodynamic "shock" does occur, it's just been at velocities we can't get out of handguns, up until the .460 S&W. It occurs around 2150 fps, and, it's a pressure wave, caused in usually near incompressible areas, created by the 'splash' effect, or temporary cavity caused
by the bullet striking.

I think that velocity DOES have some effect between 800-1500 fps, or why would the .357 be considered so effective, and the .38 not? I suspect the reason for this is that with center mass, well placed hits, they tend to do more damage at the higher velocity. Still, hi-powered rifles are a whole nother ball game, at least until the .460 S&W came along...

S
 
Fackler has no background in physics as I understand he's a medical doctor. I don't consider him an expert on anything ballistic.

Funny, even a thread so innocuous as "soft point vs hollow point" brings out the facklerites and starts a caliber war. :rolleyes:

.357 be considered so effective, and the .38 not?

I don't know anyone who thinks the .38 isn't an effective self defense caliber, but I understand what you're saying. Simple answer is energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, so of course velocity is important, more important than bullet weight which is linear in relation to energy. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong Dr. Courtney, is what Dr. Courtney is pointing out in his work is at least one major method of actual energy transfer in flesh. This subject matter being his particular specialization as a professor of physics, I tend to listen to his expertise on the subject matter and find it extremely interesting. I'm sure the Facklerites will find ways to discredit him or his work, like maybe he's doing it to "sell books" and it's all bunk. :rolleyes: Whatever, it interests me a LOT! I see you don't have many posts, new here. If you go back and read some of Dr. Courtney's previous posts in other threads, you'll find that he disagrees with Fackler's debunking of rifle terminal ballistics as something that only occurs at hyper velocity. He says it's present and working at handgun velocities, too. Handguns produce debilitating pressure waves, too. Of course, rifles having a LOT more energy, they're going to be more spectacular when they dump energy on target.

Shooting fruit is a good indicator of what pressure waves will do I think. Ever seen an orange shot by a lowly .22 hollow point? It's pretty impressive.
 
I'm sure the Facklerites will find ways to discredit him or his work, like maybe he's doing it to "sell books" and it's all bunk. Whatever, it interests me a LOT!

Isn't that how you discredit MacPherson?
 
Isn't that how you discredit MacPherson?

This is a strawman fallacy. I don't remember anyone trying to discredit MacPherson. His book on Bullet Penetration is very good on all the points for which he refers to careful, repeatable experiments. The weak areas are where he relies on the expert opinions of others without the benefit of repeatable experiment. In any case, disagreeing about points raised in a scholarly work is not "discrediting" the scholar, it is simply disagreeing. Scholars disagree with each other all the time without "discrediting" each other.

MacPherson's article _Statistics Tells the Ugly Story_ is much less compelling than his book on bullet pepetration. However, asserting that this article contains rhetorical fallacies and serious logical flaws that amount to abusing statistics to support a false presupposition is still a matter of scholarly disagreement about a single publication rather than a broad attempt to discredit a scientist or his work.

Scientists can have strong disagreements in some areas while recognizing high-quality work in others. Each assertion that a scientist or other scholar makes should be weighed on its merits as supported by reason and experimental evidence without regard for the correctness of assertions the scholar has made in other areas. This is what separates science from other disciplines: we discern truth from experiment and reason, not based expert opinion, regardless of the reputation of the "expert."

The history of science is full of examples of scientists who were completely wrong on some points, but made important contributions in others, sometimes in the same published work. Scientific validity is determined by repeatable experiment, not by "expert" opinion or errors the scholar may have made in other assertions.

On the whole, Fackler and MacPherson have made many important and enduring contributions to terminal ballistics. Disagreeing over some points should not be interpreted as an attempt to broadly discredit these scholars. The assertions they make which are backed up by repeatable experiments represent solid contributions to the field. But a keen scientist is always trying to separate assertions which go beyond clear inferences from repeatable experiments.

Michael Courtney
 
Isn't that how you discredit MacPherson?

This is a strawman fallacy. I don't remember anyone trying to discredit MacPherson. His book on Bullet Penetration is very good on all the points for which he refers to careful, repeatable experiments. The weak areas are where he relies on the expert opinions of others without the benefit of repeatable experiment. In any case, disagreeing about points raised in a scholarly work is not "discrediting" the scholar, it is simply disagreeing. Scholars disagree with each other all the time without "discrediting" each other.

MacPherson's article _Statistics Tells the Ugly Story_ is much less compelling than his book on bullet pepetration. However, asserting that this article contains rhetorical fallacies and serious logical flaws that amount to abusing statistics to support a false presupposition is still a matter of scholarly disagreement about a single publication rather than a broad attempt to discredit a scientist or his work.

Scientists can have strong disagreements in some areas while recognizing high-quality work in others. Each assertion that a scientist or other scholar makes should be weighed on its merits as supported by reason and experimental evidence without regard for the correctness of assertions the scholar has made in other areas. This is what separates science from other disciplines: we discern truth from experiment and reason, not based expert opinion, regardless of the reputation of the "expert."

For example, I have a high regard for the quality of RyanM's work in correlating bullet velocity with wound volume. This work is analytically sound, based on repeatable experiments, and I would recommend it highly for publication. On the other hand, I probably disagree with RyanM's assessment of the M&S OSS work because I believe his assessement of the OSS work is based on expert opinion rather than a careful, reasoned consideration of repeatable experiments.

The history of science is full of examples of scientists who were completely wrong on some points, but made important contributions in others, sometimes in the same published work. Scientific validity is determined by repeatable experiment, not by "expert" opinion or errors the scholar may have made in other assertions.

On the whole, Fackler and MacPherson have made many important and enduring contributions to terminal ballistics, and I expect RyanM and Dodson to make others as well. Disagreeing over some points should not be interpreted as an attempt to broadly discredit these scholars. The assertions they make which are backed up by repeatable experiments represent solid contributions to the field. But a keen scientist is always trying to distinguish assertions which go beyond clear inferences from repeatable experiments.

Michael Courtney
 
Since we've blown the topic off completely here (unfortunately; I subscribed to the thread early in hopes of hearing more about the prospects and performance of the JSP, and would like to know more about the proffered answers regarding 'wiping' and deflection), and since we're having a whole 'nuther conversation here--

Can you guys offer any external links or publication references for those who want to assess these researches and arguments for ourselves? Thanks.
 
On the JSP vs JHP topic, I'd probably prefer a JSP at velocities of about 1300 and higher. The tip could get "wiped" on contact with a bone or whatever, but a thin copper shell doesn't somehow make JHPs immune to that. If anything, JHPs are much more sensitive to impacts which cause them to deform.
 
That picture looks pretty good to me. I didn't know JSPs expanded so quickly (granted it is gelatin).
 
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