.357 magnum...a myth?

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Haranguer

9mm does not recoil less than .357, it's the gun that recoils less. Semi-autos are almost all locked breech, so this "soaks" up a lot of recoil. Where with a wheel-gun, the recoil is abosorbed only by the weight of the gun, and the grips a little bit.
 
There's a difference here

Premium factory SD loadings for the 9x19 seem to be at the upper end of the performance envelope for the cartridge. There's only so much powder you can shove into that little bitty case. Equivalent loads for the .357 Magnum are at the lower end of the cartridge's capabilities, even in small handguns.

So, while there's some overlap, that overlap is just that. Top-end 9x19 == bottom-end .357 magnum. And it's clear that the .357 will do things that the 9x19 just can't. Even with the same bullet weights, a top-end .357 load is much faster than a top-end 9x19, and the .357 will shoot bullets, in both weight and profile, that simply aren't possible in a 9x19.

Add in the whole other realm of performance available in carbines, and the superiority of the .357 Magnum is complete.

Both cartridges shoot about the same diameter bullet, but that's as far as it's fair to compare them. Ballistically, there's no comparison. The .357 is the better cartridge, at least in terms of it's ultimate potential.

--Shannon
 
I carry a Glock 19. My department issue the Federal 115 grain JHP +P+ . The old 9BP-LE load. It's a good round and has a velocity of 1300 fps from a four inch barrel. That is roughly the equivlant of the 110 grain 357 magnum JHP round.

However I don't see where the +P+ 124 grain 9mm load is the same as the classic 125 grain .357 magnum load. Another good load (124 gr +P+ 9mm) but it isn't the .357 magnum.

I like both calibers and own many handguns in both calibers. But you've got to be realistic. As another poster said it's comparing apples and oranges.
 
9mm: Medium/Large Game Round

It is well known that the 9x19 round is suitable for medium/big game.

Hunters everywhere grab their Glocks on opening day and bring home the venison with +p loads.

Or not.

A decent .357 load from a 4-inch barrel will do bison -- all the way through.

I may have mentioned that before.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2842070&postcount=39
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2844857&postcount=74
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2918620&postcount=17
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2970357&postcount=23
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A time or two.

And that was from a PISTOL ("revolver" to you purists).

Just for fun, one of these days, I'm gonna do my own "box-o-truth" test with my Marlin Camp 9 and my Marlin 1894C and some milk jugs.

Hey, the results should be the same, right? After all, the rounds are "virtually the same" and all.

That's gonna be fun.
 
My question was not so much one about ballistics. Obviously, the .357 can attain far greater velocities and energies. It is also supposed to dump its energy in a vertically shaped "destruction cone" which involves the theory of "hydrostatic shock" which is supposed to make it so effective.

The .357 magnum (like .45 ACP) is surrounded by a certain mythology of how, for instance, getting hit with one is like being "struck by lightning" and a single shot can drop a man dead in his tracks. I read stories of how cops switching to semi-autos supposedly lamented losing their "magic bullet," the .357 magnum.

Is there any real evidence for this mythology?

I mean, with a .38 special you have the same bullet (.357 caliber) making the same size hole. So if .357 is more effective it must have to do with energy. But is it? (There is also the fact that the .38 for most of its service with police was used in lead roundnose bullets while the .357 had a flat nose.)
 
Patrick Henry
The .357 magnum (like .45 ACP) is surrounded by a certain mythology of how, for instance, getting hit with one is like being "struck by lightning" and a single shot can drop a man dead in his tracks.

Is there any real evidence for this mythology?
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No. There is no such thing as a magical deathray. Yes some loads are better than others. The .357 magnum is very good and the 25 acp isn't so good. Of course that's a pretty silly comparison, but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.

The .357 magnum does have more power (whatever that means) then say the classic 38 LRN, but the old shot placement is even more important.

To loosely paraphrase Clint Smith it isn't much good to miss with the latest nuclear 7000 MAGNUM 1200 grain hollowpoint while your opponent plants six or seven .22LR's in your stomach.

My apologies to Clint Smith.;)

Nevertheless a handgun just isn't the best thing for stopping somebody. However handguns are portable, concelable and sure beat rocks.

There is a reason why armies issue rifles to their troops. They're simply better weapons for self-defense, but good luck walking into the local Dairy Queen with your Remington 700 or Winchester 94.

I expect now to hear from folks who will tell me how they used to be able to do that or how they live in one of the few towns in America where you can still do that.
 
I have to disagree with the premise that a miss is entirely worthless at "stopping an opponent". In many cases the beginning of gunfire sends the perp running for the hills. In the case of a .357, being on the back side of a full load of 2400 is impressive enough. Being on the other side of the gun and hearing the blast and seeing the flameball has got to be a bit disconcerting. Even a .40 doesn't compare as far as the fireworks goes.

I still can't help but think that a big part of the .357's "stopping power" is the impressive dual flame ball (one at the end of the barrel and the figure 8 from the cylinder). Psychology is a huge part of this game.
 
I like em both but when the shootins over a wheel gun makes a better war club.
:D
 
:scrutiny: I agree with you. But you can't count on that. As an example I've dealt with more than a few people high on Meth. It makes them very brave,mouthy and stupid. They think that they're invincible. Though they don't seem to have the inability to feel pain like those folks on Angel Dust a miss, even accomponied by an impressive fireball and loud report, might not do the trick. They'll just think they've become bulletproof or some other type of drug induced stupidity.

I've never been in a firefight, but I'm no stranger to violence. Trust me it's a very strange experience. People will suprise you. I'm 5'6" and I've taken down guys who were 6'00" and one memorable fellow who was 6'6". Yes I had help from other officers, but those big old bruisers thought they were going to have me for lunch. They were definite "NO" people. But I had made the decision that I was going hands on and that I would go first. They were looking down at me and underestimated me. In a way my aim was true. Yes I had help and yes if I had been by myself I probably would have had to resort to deadly force, but I still had better "shot placement" even though I was the equivland of a 38 special :eek: to those 44 magnums.:D

My two hardest fights were both females. They both weighed probably 100 pounds and they were both dianosed Schizophrenics. I underestimated both of them and the second time she hit me first while I was still trying to be Officer Friendly. I won, but they were both memorable fights. So much for psychology. :uhoh:

Hope I didn't ramble too much and please don't think that I'm suggesting that I'm some type of super-cop. I'm not. But I do want to go home at the end of my shift.:)
 
The effectiveness of the hot .357 Magnum load is very barrel length dependent. From a 2" snub, a +P 9mm is its equal or BETTER. However, from 4" guns it's a whole nuther ballgame. And, the .357 can shoot much heavier bullets. The street rep of the .357 was established with service 4-6" revolvers using the 125 grain JHP at 1400-1500+ fps. That's a powerful round and it's no bleepin' wonder it has such a street record. A 4" gun is in the 600 ft lbs range and the hottest of the hot 9mm rounds out of a 5" barrel are sub 450 ft lbs. But, in guns that will go in a pocket, there's much less difference. My preference is with the 9mm, actually, due to the fact that is is MUCH more pleasant to shoot in short barrels, more controllable, and quicker follow ups. If I'm going to carry on a hip IWB (as I did all day today with a 3" revolver) and can tote a 3" gun, then the .357 starts to leave the 9mm ballistically and by the time you're totin' it in a 4" gun, there's no contest, game, set, match .357 Magnum. I don't think a lot of shooters realize this when choosing a snubby, but I ain't puttin' up with the flash bang and recoil of a light pocket sized J frame .357, sorry. The 9 has just as much at least on paper and is a LOT more pleasant to get that second well aimed shot to the target. I'd rather carry a .38 load in that 12 ounce titanium wonder than the .357, personally.
 
since

most encounters with bad guys by us good guys are likely to involve low or no light situations, I really relish having some ancient piece of crap wheelgun making me blind the first time I shoot it. I'll pass thank you and keep my semi auto 45 acp and 10mm pistols. Y'all can have my share of primer extruding bullet pulling cylinder jamming wheel guns thank you.
 
I really relish having some ancient piece of crap wheelgun making me blind the first time I shoot it. I'll pass thank you and keep my semi auto 45 acp and 10mm pistols
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ROFL, but I consider the 1911 the "ancient POC". Rather have two less rounds, but 6 for sure, than a jammamatic 1911 that'll only feed ball, thanks. I can't afford a high end 1911. I have a good .45, but I prefer carrying my revolvers in .357 Magnum. Yeah, it IS a man's gun, I'll admit. :D
 
Sometimes a combination comes together that is not easily explained. We all know that the .357 is very good balistically. You have to give some credit to the platform in which it gained it's reputation. For the most part a 4" double action revolver in the holster of most cops in the US. The time frame in which it became popular in law enforcement (late 60's till the late 70's). It was popular at a time when most .38's were still loaded with the 158 RNL. It was far and away a big improvement over it. And also being in so many holsters there is a larger amount of shooting reports to study. Another point about the guns it was loaded in. Smiths, Colts, Rugers all high quality, accurate revolvers. When this all came about those who used .45's or 9mm's were using ball ammo. The .357 was also the laboratory for expanding bullets in handguns. It was almost always traveling fast enough enough to expand soft points, and flat nose soft points (remember super vel). There have been great strides in bullet design over the last few years. This has leveled the playing field somewhat, but I still stand by the fact that the nine will never be able to match the .357 as a man-stopper. Are 16 almost .357's better than six real ones, we can argue that too. I like my 9mm. I like having 46 rounds with me. But it is not a .357 Magnum. :)
 
3 gun,

Stop wasting your time on that site. He can't even close his own conclusion.."In all, the .357 provides the same performance as the 9x19mm, but penetrates significantly deeper."

Deeper penetration makes for better performance in most loads, not the same.

The 357mag is a more powerful round in just about all loads.
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You present some succinct and reasonable arguments to support your point. Thank you for that. I believe that your reading comprehension is what is at fault in this case. 'Performance' in this case meant 'expanded diameter'. Notice how the other two components of a bullets wounding potential (penetration depth and velocity) were compared to the one factor that was named, the expanded diameter. That saves me from having to come out and name everything - I can just refer to it with creative wording and the point usually gets across.
 
I have 9s and I have .357s.
The .357 can shoot a 158gr semi-wadcutter. The 9 can't.
Given a choice, if I had to shoot something, I'd rather do it with a semi-wadcutter than a JHP.
I guess Elmer Keith is still talking to me, because within the limits of pistol cartridge speeds, the SWC is always "on".
Bill
 
OK....so as long as I'm willing to cary a 3 pound, 4 inch barrel revolver, .357 is the better choice.
 
As I pointed out before, the guy contradicts himself in his own conclusion.

The 357mag is not a myth. It has earned its rep the hard way. Sure some of the modern loads might be on the softer side because of some of the older pistol still in use. But even then the 357 is no 9mm.

Do a quick search on this or other boards for the one pistol to own if you could only have the one. It needs to do it all. Targets, training, SD against 2 and 4 legged beasts and reliable.

I'm pretty sure you'll find a 4" 357 the runaway winner for East of the Mississippi. You'd want a 44mag or bigger West of it because of the size of the bears out there.

The 357mag can do anything and everything a 9mm can do, not the other way around.

I'm not bashing the 9mm or the pistols that shoot it. Just the opposite, I'm a fan of the 9mm. I'm just not going to give it credit where it's not earned.
 
You can make remarks about the ancestery of my dog.have your doughts about the gas milage of my family sedan. spread the story , if you wish that my backyard barbecues could be best digested by a brood of arkansas razerbacks. but if you cast aspersions on my 357 magnum sixgun , get somebody to hold you coat. we will continue this discussion in the alley! (skeeter skelton) i always like this!:neener: *csa*
 
More Propoganda from a Big Bore!

I mean "PropAganda," not PropOganda.

Is the .357's reputation as "king of the street" fact or fiction?
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I'd say ask someone who's been shot with a .357, but most of them are dead, that is, if they were hit with a 125gr JHP. Massad Ayoob is the one to ask as he's the one who made me a believer. Since reading some of his material, I've gone on to research many other writers and study the effects of the ammunition in the gun itself. Unfortunately, it's damn hard on any gun.

I'm also a believer in the concept that there's no such thing as a free lunch. There are negative points to using that load. Does it work? Yes, but that's not so much the point. The price tag is the sharp blast (recoil accompanied by a blinding fireball). It's kind of like brocolli. Anything that bad has to be good for you. And anything that jolting has to be bad for anyone in front of it.

Brasscatcher shows his leanings when he says: "terminal ballistic efficiency in handguns is generally realized with heavier bullets and low velocities." By this, I imagine he'd rather have a .45 hardball round over the .357 125gr JHP. That's his choice, of course, but it's not based on anything but legend. Bullet configuration, velocity, what the bullet's made of -- all these must be considered. And though I have a lot of faith in the old .45, probabilities of taking out someone with one round is significantly higher with the .357 load.

Also, remember Larry Flynt? He was hit with a .44 magnum twice and lived. I had a friend who shot a Moro in the chest at point blank range and had to use a blow from his .45 to end the fight. Even then, his assialant lived, so no one load is guaranteed.

The 125gr JHP is a nasty, vicious round. I've seen photos of the types of wounds it makes and I'll likely remain a believer. I'm sure there are those who have survived a point blank shot to the chest with a 125gr JHP, but if so, I've yet to see it documented.

One last thing. The 158gr JHPs are really not that great against humans. The penetration is just too great. For deer or other game, it's great. But the great thing about the .357 mag is that it's so derned versitile. There never has been another round quite like it.

Regarding the 9mm, so much of the problem isn't the size of the bullet, but its configuration. So much of it tends to be jacketed and the overall shape doesn't lend itself to opening up very well. But even so, the 115gr JHP has proven to be a very good round and every bit as good as most .45 ACPs. Under our incredibly stupid restrictions, ball ammo must be used in all military handguns. This alone ensures that the .45 legend will continue to live on in the minds of people who don't know any better.
 
The .357 can get almost twice the power of the hottest 9mm. Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap get in the neighborhood of 800 foot-pounds from the .357. The SP101 with 158 grain loads (DoubleTap and Buffalo bore give ~1400 fps out of a 3" barrel) can do most anything you could imagine, except kill six people. With 200 grain cast loads, it could do most anything except kill six bears. Try that with a 9mm.

If you want an autoloader to give you .357 performance, you simply have to step up to 10mm.
 
well they definitly exagerated it, if they want to compare the 9mm toi anything the 38 would be the next closest, however in terms of stoping power a lighter bullet with high velocity is not going to have as much time to expand or carry as much force behind it as a heavy bullet with lower velocity, don't get me wrong I love my 357 its my favorite gun but I have noticed this inherent problem and taken care of it by loading it with 200 grain loads from double tap.
 
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