.357 magnum loads and recoil

[NoirFan]

Here is something I just don't get about the .357

I went out with my S&W 19 4" barrel yesterday and shot a variety of loads through it:

Fiocchi 142 grain @1400 fps.
Magtech 158 grain @ 1200 fps
Remington Golden Saber 125 grain @ 1200 fps
Winclean 125 grain at 1400 fps

It seems like the Full-power 125-grain loads recoil much more than any of the heavier weight loads. Multiple friends shooting the same loads have confirmed this. How can this be? If we have 142 grains @ 1400 fps, and 125 grains at 1400 fps, it stands to reason that the former should recoil more that the latter, but it is actually the opposite. Am I overlooking something?

 

[MrBorland]

If we have 142 grains @ 1400 fps, and 125 grains at 1400 fps, it stands to reason that the former should recoil more that the latter, but it is actually the opposite. Am I overlooking something?

I'm going out on a limb here, so right up front I defer to others more knowledegeable, but what you're experiencing is the difference between "recoil", and "percieved recoil". Recoil is a result of conservation of momentum, so the total recoil energy of the 142 grain is higher, but since the lighter 125 grain bullet accelerates faster, it imparts its energy (though less) in a shorter period of time, and thus feels snappier.

 

[Steve C]

The answer is simply that the Fiocchi 142gr probably wasn't leaving the barrel at its advertised 1,420 fps while the Winchester 125gr probably was at or closer to its advertised 1,450 fps.

 

[paperpuncher49]

Recoil results from four factors: muzzle velocity, powder charge, bullet weight, and weight of the gun. That means you have to know exactly what each is to calculate the actual foot pounds of recoil generated. You didn't whether or not you used a chronograph to confirm the velocity, or if you are just taking the manufacturer's word for it. However, lighter bullets generally have a greater powder charge. That could account for why the 125 grain at 1400 fps seems to have a heavier recoil, but not why it would exceed the recoil of the 142 grainers if they are in fact doing 1400 fps also.

 

[Quoheleth]

I will concur with the OP's observation. Out of both my GP161 and SP101 (3"), the 125 Magnums feel sharper and "torquier" - for lack of a better word - than the 158 grain bullets. While I have a small handful of 125 HPs I keep for zombie invasion, I personally do not plan to buy those again unless they are WAY on sale. I'll stick with 158s for both factory and reload work.


Q

 

[Oro]

There is another variable in perceived recoil - time. Take the extreme example - an airbag in a car. In an accident, the same amount of energy is transferred to the driver in a head-on collision whether or not you have an air bag, or not. But the air bag slows down the transfer, resulting in less damage, and "perceived" energy transfer.

There is a physics phrase for this principal, but it escapes me right now. In a gun, your time factor is your powder's burn characteristics - how fast and how long it makes peak pressure. Sounds like it would all happen so fast you can't notice it, but your hand can feel it. This is also a variable in "perceived" recoil.

 

[Lou22]

Interesting topic. I got different results shooting what I thought was full-powered loads out of my EAA Windicator snub at the range. The 125gr loads has noticibly less recoil out of the 28oz gun than did 158gr. Maybe the short barrel allowed the 125gr to burn less completely before the bullet left it than the 158gr. Here are the specs on both rounds:

Black Hills 158gr JHP - 1500fps, 625 foot-pounds
Collins Cartridge 125gr JHP reloads - no specs on website

It could be the Collins Cartridge loads are just loaded milder.

Lou

 

[NoirFan]

Hi all,

I must clarify by saying that my observations were completely unscientific. The velocities I posted were the manufacturers' velocities on their web sites, and recoil was quantified by gut feeling only. I don't have a chronograph but now I wish I did!

paperpuncher49 gave the simplest (and probably correct) answer... that mfg stated velocities are exaggerated on their website.

I had not realized that pressure - not just weight and velocity - can affect recoil impulse as well. I need to start reloading so I can learn more about this.

Another unrelated question: when I shoot exposed lead magnums, I almost always feel a slight sting on my left cheekbone. I have had the gun re-timed but it doesn't seem to change. It doesn't seem to affect accuracy either. Is my gun spitting and is this a safety problem?

 

[Seafarer12]

It would also depend on what kind of powder they used. A slower powder might spread that recoil enough to make it feel lighter where as a fast powder might give it to you all at once.

 

[The Bushmaster]

There it is...Seafarer12 has it...Type of powder, people. It's the powder...

 

[jfh]

As The Bushmaster said, it's the powder.

Even in 38+P loads, a Speer 135-gr "replica reload" in Power Pistol feels much sharper than identical ballistics with AA#5--and it only gets more significant as the ballistics go up. At the Speer 357 Magnum ballistics, the difference is really noticable, especially in lightweights.

I'll take a "full" recoil from a slower powder over a "sharp" recoil from a faster powder any time.

Jim H.

 

[bent]

Although the "recoil" may be exactly the same for both rounds, what the shooter feels may be entirely different for both. The difference is the amount of time that recoil is exerted over. If 125gr exerts the same amount of recoil over a shorter time period, it is perceived to be harsher.

In more technical terms, the difference between the two is in the "impulse". The same force (recoil) exerted over different amounts of time. Wikipedia's definition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse

 

[shooter429]

Well, others have about covered the basics

But you will get more recoil from a heavier load, if it is loaded hot enough. The thing is, the 125 grain loads are the creme of the crop, and tend to run closer to full power than the other loads as that is what virtually everyone recognizes as the best manstopper in the caliber. Also, you will tend to get a lot more unburned powder with light bullets and slow powders making for more intense blast and flash, adding to perceived recoil.

I just loaded some 180 grain bullets to max pressure and they actually sting in a 28 oz. gun the 125 do not even come close. The 180s feel much more like a .44 than do any lighter bullet loads.

So, to sum up you have bullet weight, bullet velocity, gun weight recoil axis, and powder volume and burn rate to consider. Also, acoustics and light conditions play into it all. Then comes the hardest of all to predict or measure: The shooters experience, which can be affected by mood, drugs, health, mental attitude, expectations and impulses, as well as your 5 senses, to name a few factors.

Recoil is a very individual experience just like (and sometimes because of) pain perception.

I hope this helps to clear things further, but it might muddy the water.

Shooter429

 

[tipoc]

Other posters have explained some of the physics of it, more or less, but generally with the factory 125 gr. loads you get increased velocity which is the point of having the lighter bullet. With this there is generally more muzzle flash and noise and a sharper recoil. Which for many shooters quickly induces flinching.

A 158 gr. bullet at about 1100-1200 fps will do what you want with less muzzle flash and a softer feeling recoil which can also help accuracy.

tipoc

 

[Ala Dan]

I try too avoid the .357 magnum rounds that produce a lot of "flame cutting"~!

 

[Lafeswede]

Pain

NoirFan,
I've been trying max listed handloads with Vihtavuori N110 for both 125gr and 158gr bullets of various designs. Also chronographing the loads. This I did in the early 1990's, before V/V downgraded the loads. My experience is what others have pointed out here; the higher velocity of the lighter bullet gives a snappier recoil. But, shoot an extended number of rounds and you'll feel the difference. The pain in the web of your hand gives evidence; the heavier bullet punches harder.
Now something more important: do not try this in your model 19! It was NOT designed for modern day .357 magnum loads. At 90% of max loads, I had to stomp on the extractor rod to eject the cases from my Combat Magnum. If you intend to keep this (otherwise very good) gun, do limit your use of full power .357 ammo for very important purposes.
BTW, the full power tests were made with a GP 100, which laughed at everything.
Sail safe
Lafeswede

 

[Confederate]

I believe MrBorland is correct. Blast from a 125 gr bullet is considerable, but blast and recoil are separate. If you've ever seen someone flinch when there's a spent round in the chamber, you know he or she is reacting to what is expected.

I knew a fellow who was attacked by a grizzly bear years ago. He afterwards swore he had only fired two rounds when he had, in fact, fired all six. He had to be shown the rest before he believed. (He also said he had no "ringing in the ears," either, which is amazing, but I guess when you go into fight or flight mode, strange things can happen.)

The mind plays tricks on people. That's why you really need equipment that can accurately measure something that might otherwise be very subjective.

 

[tipoc]

My experience has been a bit different from some. I think the most important factor involved in recoil is the type gun being shot and the grips. There is a good deal of difference between the felt recoil of a Ruger Blackhawk, a S&W M28, a Glock in 357 Sig and a 1911 in .38 Super with a 125. gr. pill at 1300 fps.

Recoil figures may give you a rough idea of what to expect but the shape of the grip frame and the stocks themselves (wood, rubber, horn, etc.) and whether the stocks fit the shooters hand or not, tell a different tale. Even if the guns are of roughly equivalent weight the type of grip frame and grips makes a greater difference.

I'm not so sure that most humans can register the difference between the elapsed time it takes a 158 gr. bullet to leave the barrel at 1200 fps and a 125. gr. pill to do the same at 1400 fps. But most can see and feel the difference.

tipoc

 

[NoirFan]

Tipoc, the gun is a 4" barrel M19 with Miculek wood grips. I really like these grips as they nestle deeply in my hand and do not seem to shift at all when shooting magnums. They do sting a bit with full power loads, but objectively speaking it is no worse than a dumb buddy giving you a hard high five.

Confederate, you make a good point about sound and flash adding to perceived recoil. I had heard this before and I actually mentally prepared myself to try and ignore those factors when judging recoil, even to the point of closing my eyes when comparing various loads. I guess I wasn't entirely successful.

Lafeswede, I am going to shoot a lot of .38s and slow magnums in the coming year, so as to save wear and tear on my M19. The full power 125 grain is kind of bitchy to shoot anyway.

Thanks!

 

[NoirFan]

Hey all you guys who are talking about powder type and pressure being the culprit, is there a best beginner book on the topic?

Thanks,

 

[eagle24]

It would also depend on what kind of powder they used. A slower powder might spread that recoil enough to make it feel lighter where as a fast powder might give it to you all at once.

My vote for sure. Also why I like H110 in my 44 mag. Plus, you get the cool flame out the sides of the cylinder and end of the barrel.

 

[tipoc]

double post, oops!

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

NoirFan,

The reloading manuals that Speer, Hodgen's, etc. publish are useful places to start. I believe many of the ammo manufacturers publish them annually. They should be available at your local gunatorium. Others will have other suggestions and know more than I do.

I've never cared for the commercial 125 gr. loads out of my K frames either. Seems alot of wasted power going into that ball of flame. 158 gr. loads at anywhere from 1000-1200 fps. work for me in a K frame.

When I need what the 125. gr. loads have to offer I go to my .38 Super and have a few more rounds to boot.

tipoc