.357 or .45

Status
Not open for further replies.
Okay, history lesson time. The .357 Magnum was in response to J. Edgar, etc, and their need for a round that could hole the car doors of the day in return fire at fleeing felons. Hoover's men had little chance against the bg's, often armed with a national guard's ripped off military firepower. Doug Wesson took the new S&W .357 Registered Magnum and it's ammo hunting - and dispatched every form of North American game with it - it was an impressive round.

Skip ahead to the sixties - the FBI is using a relatively new round - a .38 Special +P 158gr LHPSWC - designed to be effective from a short barrel .357 Magnum - or a beefed up .38 Special. The winds of chain pointed towards the higher capacity or a 9mm bottom feeder - the reason they abandoned the 'FBI' load. Most LEOs of the time carried .38s - with 158gr LRNs - which would gain the 'widowmaker' title as they were ineffective against the drugged-up bgs of the day, leaving many LEOs fallen due to the bg's use of semi-auto's. This is, I believe, what you will find Mas Ayoob's, a fine and most knowledgeable fellow, remarks concerning.

Even today, if you trust the compiled data of Marshall & Sanow, the 'FBI' load is considerably more effective than the infamous .45 ACP 230gr ball ammo from a 1911. Of course, modern hollow points in .45 ACP quickly pass the .38s - but also just don't feed as reliably in some case tossers. Shot placement is important - but the +P 158gr LHPSWC round, even fired from a snubby, will have enough velocity to open properly for enough enlargement to cause a significant wound channel - larger than a .45 ball ammo round. It is a fine snubby to 4" HD round - without the flash, crack, and recoil of a .357 Magnum. While a 1911 is a great weapon, I want the dependability of a revolver for my home use - this fits.

There are other 'snubby' .38 rounds with promise - the Speer +P 135gr Gold Dots, for example. Even full wadcutters could be used for the very squeamish or small of stature, those who would never pick up a 1911, etc. My pockets, if large enough, carry my HD guns - a 296 or a 642. I feel fine, protection wise, with that 642 stoked with the 'FBI' load... okay, a bit better with my 5-shot Airweight .44 Special and Speer 200gr Gold Dots. But, I can carry the 642 with those 'FBI' loads 100% of the time - which beats the heck out of the 75% carry of the .44 Special (due to size). It's hard to pick 'good' days and 'bg' days!

Stainz

PS About 'minimum' considerations... remember that we got to the Moon that way...
 
Even today, if you trust the compiled data of Marshall & Sanow,
the 'FBI' load is considerably more effective than
the infamous .45 ACP 230gr ball ammo from a 1911.

...

There are other 'snubby' .38 rounds with promise
- the Speer +P 135gr Gold Dots, for example.
Click to expand...

Mikey likes it.

clip_10.jpg
 
Posted by Stainz:
Even today, if you trust the compiled data of Marshall & Sanow, the 'FBI' load is considerably more effective than the infamous .45 ACP 230gr ball ammo from a 1911. Of course, modern hollow points in .45 ACP quickly pass the .38s - but also just don't feed as reliably in some case tossers. Shot placement is important - but the +P 158gr LHPSWC round, even fired from a snubby, will have enough velocity to open properly for enough enlargement to cause a significant wound channel - larger than a .45 ball ammo round. It is a fine snubby to 4" HD round - without the flash, crack, and recoil of a .357 Magnum. While a 1911 is a great weapon, I want the dependability of a revolver for my home use - this fits.
Click to expand...

Marshall & Sanow are thoroughly discredited here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

And here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

The .45 ACP round has proven itself in World Wars and other conflicts around the globe, as well as in law enforcement work and civilian self-defense.

A small sampling of elite military and law enforcement units that currently use the .45 ACP 1911, because of its superb shootability, stopping power and RELIABILITY:

U.S. Army Delta Force
U.S. Marine Corps Force Recon
LAPD Special Weapons and Tactics
LAPD Special Investigation Section
 
Defensory said:
The .45 ACP round has proven itself in World Wars and other conflicts around the globe, as well as in law enforcement work and civilian self-defense.
Click to expand...

Other than the obvious, what is your point? There is nothing wrong with what Stainz said.

Further to that, what the military uses and what cops use are not symmetrical. For instance, you can't silence a revolver. So, naturally the military would want something that had mobility as far as special parts go.

In any event, the .357 has been proved over and over again in the hands of Police, home owners and hunters. It is much easier to teach people to shoot a revolver, load and unload a revolver than it is an auto. Further to that, the .357 does better shooting through "cover" than does the .45, which is something the average home owner should consider as there is a great big couch in just about every persons living room....
 
I still prefer the .38 Special +P 158gr LHPSWC as a HD round, whether in a 2" or less snubby .38 to a 4" or so .357 Magnum. I will not stoke my .357 Magnums with real Magnums for indoor use - it simply isn't warranted. Handguns that chamber the .38 +P load are simply smaller, far more abundant, and affordable.

I was not offering M. & S. as gospel. If I were to defend my home in a war-like manner - ie, from the hordes - as in my 'Zombie' spoof - I'd resort to what I showed and described in my earlier post (#32). I have long been a .45 ACP fan, albeit in a revolver. I feel that is the best of both worlds - the effectiveness of decent .45 ACP rounds combined with the inherent simplicity/reliability of the revolver is a hard act to follow. In fact, given the actual choice of either real .357 Magnums or .45 ACPs, I'd opt for the latter... under the requirement that they be launched from a revolver. Seriously, how could you expect a different outcome in a revolver forum?

Stainz
 
Posted by Stainz:
Okay, history lesson time. The .357 Magnum was in response to J. Edgar, etc, and their need for a round that could hole the car doors of the day in return fire at fleeing felons. Hoover's men had little chance against the bg's, often armed with a national guard's ripped off military firepower. Doug Wesson took the new S&W .357 Registered Magnum and it's ammo hunting - and dispatched every form of North American game with it - it was an impressive round.
Click to expand...

Actually, the FBI had virtually nothing to do with the development of the .357 cartridge.

Colt's .38 Super round was costing Smith & Wesson a number of law enforcement contracts around the country, so S&W realized they had to come up with a revolver round with greater power and penetration in order to compete with the Super.

Elmer Keith, who had no affiliation whatsoever with the FBI, played a central role in the development of the cartridge.
 
Stainz:

The intention of my posts in this thread is NOT to dredge up the old "Semi-auto versus revolver" argument.

I've already stated that I would also reject (for home defense) the 10mm semi-auto for the same reasons I reject the .357 Magnum revolver:

1. Harsh recoil and excessive barrel rise resulting in slower follow-up shots.
2. Deafening muzzle blast in confined areas (even harmful to hearing in open areas for that matter) such as bedrooms and hallways.
3. Blinding muzzle flash in a low/no light situation.
4. Excessive penetration, which presents a greater threat to wives, kids etc. (and even to neighbors in a typical thin-walled apartment/condo building).
 
2. Deafening muzzle blast in confined areas (even harmful to hearing in open areas for that matter) such as bedrooms and hallways.
Click to expand...

It is only 5 or 6 decibles different than a .45. Depending on the house and what not.

3. Blinding muzzle flash in a low/no light situation.
Click to expand...

I actually consider that a plus... Even if you miss, the perp is scared out of his wits do to the roar, the flame and the resultant psych damage. :)

Regarding over pentration, bullets are not "meat seekers". They MIGHT hurt someone, but the perp in your house will certainly hurt someone if not dealt with effectively.
 
Alright boys, specifically Stainz and Defensory,

You're having a nice exchange now. Please keep it at that level so this very interesting thread is not deleted by the moderators, ok?
 
Well, let's be accurate. The 1930 introduction by S&W of a beefed up .38, termed the .38/44 as it was built on the .44 HE frame, was to up the velocity and KE at the bequest of LEOs, including the FBI. That revolver was available first as a fixed sight as the 'Heavy Duty', and later with adjustable sights as the 'Outdoorsman'. The obvious problems of taking the hotter .38/44 cartridge, which was the same size as a .38 S&W Special, and firing it in a lighter .38 was paramount to the development of the .357 Magnum. The cartridge was co-authored by several folks 'in the industry', with arms/ammo writer Philip Sharpe, who developed many of the .38/44 loads, petitioned S&W and Winchester for the 'different' case (.125" longer) and stronger gun. Thus was born the 'Registered Magnum', the first .357M - capable of launching a 158gr round at 1,515 fps. While many notables, Ed McGivern, Col. Doug Wesson, and Gen. Geo. S. Patton, for example, got early 'Registered Magnums', the actual first one, Registered Magnum #1, went to J. Edgar Hoover. This was compiled from various writings/TV interviews of Roy Jinks, S&W's historian extraordinaire. Elmer Keith is best known for his work with the .45 Colt - then the .44 Special and .44 Remington Magnum.

Re the semi/revolver argument... you are in revolver territory...

Oh, and S&W has a perfect way to launch 10mm and .40 S&W rounds... the 610!

Stainz
 
It is only 5 or 6 decibles different than a .45. Depending on the house and what not.
Click to expand...
You do realize that decibels are calculated on a logarithmic, not a straight scale, right? A mere 1 decibel increase is noticeable to the human ear. Increases in intensity are based on powers of ten (hence the deci- in decibel). A "mere" 5 or 6 decibel difference actually amounts to a very noticeable increase in the intensity of the sound.

I actually consider that a plus... Even if you miss, the perp is scared out of his wits do to the roar, the flame and the resultant psych damage.
Click to expand...
You feel like betting your life on that? In real gunfights, people have been known to soak up multiple bullets without breaking off their attack, never mind scary noises. I'm going to depend on scoring solid hits to stop the gunfight, not the unknowable factor of the assailant's level of aggression/timidity.

And it's most definitely a big disadvantage to deprive yourself of both your night vision and hearing, even if the assailant does flee. I can't imagine how disorienting yourself more than absolutely necessary translates to any kind of advantage.

Regarding over pentration, bullets are not "meat seekers". They MIGHT hurt someone, but the perp in your house will certainly hurt someone if not dealt with effectively.
Click to expand...
And if you can do that with a round that has roughly the same amount of stopping power, yet manages to do it with less flash, less blast, lower felt recoil, and less tendency to overpenetrate, why wouldn't you? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
 
You can conceal a 4" GP100 if you use a high-riding holster. A lose speedloader can be had in your front pocket.

A .45 auto, 5", which I don't own, should be single stack for less printing and a more comfortable grip.

Either one will knock a massive guy down.

These are big handguns though and will print. My favourite conceal carry piece is a 3.6" 9mm single stack semi-auto. It will not knock a massive guy down, but if he is close enough I can always shoot him in the head.
 
40 years ago it is a recycled debate of
.357 Mag vs .45 ACP, Revovlers vs Semi-Autos
what about HI-Cap 9s or the new comer .40 S&W.

Two of my revolvers had to go to a gunsmith after a
range session. The 625 .45 ACP had the cylinder lock up.
The 686P had a mainspring screw that backed off and started
doing dud hits on primers.

My specific points of ref.S&W

S&W 1911 5" Bbl. Stainless Steel. It's my carry piece
because I shoot it as well as my 625 but it is a lot
more concealable than the big N-frame S&W. I carry 1
spare mag. in an IWB mag holder. which is a lot more concealable
than any loaded full moon clip.

S&W 625 5" Bbl. - not small at 45 oz. but a joy to
shoot El Kah Bong away a range session. THe only way
to carry one would be Muzzle down, shoulder rig.and
get some betlholders for full moon clips.

My latest is a CZ 75B 9mm x 19 and I like the
sub sonic 147 gr. JHP loads that are available for
HD/SD - slide is narrower and shorter than the 1911
and the frame in the grip area is almost the same width.
So I'm looking for leather for this one ahead of the 625
and 60.

I don't care for the .357 Magnum platform that I own,
a S&W 686P 7 shooter w/4" Bbl. It just has too much of a
violent recoil, with a big muzzle flash of the slower burning
magnum powder - not good for HD indoors imho.
& about the 7 shot cylinder, - sometimes two empties
hang up on the cyl. release. I think it is better as a
6 shooter. Did I mention the HKS Speedloader #587 has
clearance problems with the same cyl. release.
I shoot this one the least well but I'll keep trying.

I also have a S&W Model 60 3" Bbl. .357 Magnum and have
settled on the .38 Special +P Speer 125 gr. Gold DOt JHP for the
HD/SD load. I like it better and hit better with it than the 686P.

I'm thinking about trading the 686P for a good used N-frame with
a 6" Bbl. to utilized the cartridge to better potential and the heavier
frame will soak up recoil.

R-
 
I would recommend what I carry on a daily basis, a S&W 45 ACP with the skinny barrel.

I believe the current terminology is Mountain Revolver.

Mine was created long before they thought of the name.

SW45ACP002Small.gif
 
Elmer Keith played a SIGNIFICANT role in the development of the .357 Magnum, as documented by Blue Press/Dillon Precision:

"Accordingly, Col. Douglas B. Wesson, grand-
son of one of the founders of Smith and Wesson,
got together with noted firearms experts Phil
Sharpe and Elmer Keith to develop a cartridge that
would far surpass the .38 Special in power. It was
to have a bullet diameter of .357” (the actual bul-
let diameter of the .38 Special), but configured so
that it could not inadvertently be loaded into .38
Special handguns with potentially disastrous
results. What they developed was a case about
1/8” longer than the .38 Special, loaded with a
158-grain bullet to an original velocity of 1515
f.p.s. from an 8-3/4” barrel. Col. Wesson, being a
wine fancier, knew the term “magnum” meant a
wine bottle of increased capacity, and he applied
the name to the new cartridge. In 1934, Winches-
ter produced a cartridge to Col. Wesson’s specifi-
cations, and the .357 Magnum round was born."

Mar 08 Blue Press 20-37 1/15/08 10:55 AM Page 36

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...um&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=us&client=firefox-a
 
I have been shooting both revolvers and semis for over 42 years.I truly feel that if you are a new shooter,you would be best served with a quality .357 mag revolver.They are easier to use,plus they can shoot 38 .spl ammo.I have never seen a revolver jam up by bullets being caught in the forcing cone due to recoil with factory ammo.In my experience,a stock revolver will pretty much shoot circles around a stock semi.Pick up afew speedloaders and practice reloading at the range or home using dummy ammo.
 
Interesting... John Marshall writing in a monthly catalog article mentions Elmer Keith... Roy Jinks, noted S&W historian, in his well received 'standard', "The History of Smith and Wesson", doesn't. Also, I believe they may have collaborated on the .38/44 round - it was a popular periodical topic of the day - and it took no case changes. The Winchester supplied new .357 Magnum cases were in response to the Smith and Wesson requirements for their new Registered Magnum. While it's easy to cut down cases as a reloader, manufacturing ~.125" longer cases is more in the domain of a case-maker.

Interestingly, that gun was not expected to sell well. In fact, initially, S&W only had cardboard boxes large enough to hold the 8.4" version. While the RM started life at $60, it's value today is in the thousands - even that box is valuable. I wonder if the blue plastic box of today's S&W will one day have value?

Blindjustice, I, for one, would really like to know what bound your 625's cylinder up - any feedback on that yet? I am sorry about your 686P & the HKS 587 troubles - I don't seem to have them, myself. Mine seems to clear both my wimpy .357M and .38 Special cases pretty well, too. Maybe I am just not that fast - I know dropping the short-cased .45 ARs from the #25 requires more attention - and I did that a bit before ever getting the 686P.

Interesting how you become accustomed to certain things - I love my moonclipped .45 ACPs and 625JM - they belong together. I find aligning the spindly legs of eight 'clipped .357Ms with the eased charge holes of my 627s more of a chore.

This brings up a great, albeit a tad costly - $719 locally - choice for a house gun - this year's S&W 627 Pro (SKU #178014 - MSRP $964). They also have a bit more plain 627 (SKU #163357 MSRP $916). I have the former - what a keeper. Eight rounds of the 'FBI' +P .38 Special load should be good protection. Mine remains a safe-setter - it has lower effort springs. My CC/HD firearms remain 'stock'.

Stainz
 
Billy Shears said:
You do realize that decibels are calculated on a logarithmic, not a straight scale, right? A mere 1 decibel increase is noticeable to the human ear. Increases in intensity are based on powers of ten (hence the deci- in decibel). A "mere" 5 or 6 decibel difference actually amounts to a very noticeable increase in the intensity of the sound.
Click to expand...

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

Yes, I did know that. Read the referenced chart and you will see that what I was saying is that whether firing a .357 or a .45 indoors, you are screwed. The 5 or 6 decibel difference won't save, help or stop anything.

Billy Shears said:
You feel like betting your life on that? In real gunfights, people have been known to soak up multiple bullets without breaking off their attack, never mind scary noises. I'm going to depend on scoring solid hits to stop the gunfight, not the unknowable factor of the assailant's level of aggression/timidity.

And it's most definitely a big disadvantage to deprive yourself of both your night vision and hearing, even if the assailant does flee. I can't imagine how disorienting yourself more than absolutely necessary translates to any kind of advantage.
Click to expand...

uhhh are you serious? Home Invasions are an inherently "scary" process. Hence the number of folks who end up shooting through doors and doing other idiotic things that are difficult to explain in court later. Everything you said above is the way that we all feel, but the reality of the situation is that hits in a combat venue are hard to come by, police reports tell us this much.

You feel like betting your life on that?
Click to expand...

I actually detest this question. At the end of the day, I am betting my life on a $0.15 per unit hunk of brass and lead. A $0.05 spring on the hammer. A $2.00 light bulb / flash light bulb and batteries. A phone line that has been around since 1960. et cetera et cetera.

Betting that gun shots might conceivably scare a home invader is pretty safe. Aiming to hit is priceless eh?

Billy Shears said:
And if you can do that with a round that has roughly the same amount of stopping power, yet manages to do it with less flash, less blast, lower felt recoil, and less tendency to overpenetrate, why wouldn't you? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Click to expand...

Recoil is subjective... If you are using a 5" 1911 and comparing that to a .357 2" j frame, then yeah there is a BIG difference. If you compare it to a 4 or 5" N frame, it isn't that big.

If you use Winchester 230 grain ball ammo, you are right, there is virtually no muzzle flash. If you are using other hollow point ammo, there is quite a bit of muzzle flash. I use .38+p's and have tested my ammo at night, specifically bought Winchester to keep flash down and I can live with the ammo I use. Not all .357 rounds shoot 10' of flame out the barrel... Not all .45 ammo produces one spark. Corbon 45 ammo, for instance, produces a tremendous muzzle flash. Federal 230 Hydrashock ammo ALSO produces a large flash. If you are practicing with your chosen ammo in a Combat setting (i.e. at the range, in low light) then you will mitigate risks you otherwise wouldn't have known about.
 
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

Yes, I did know that. Read the referenced chart and you will see that what I was saying is that whether firing a .357 or a .45 indoors, you are screwed. The 5 or 6 decibel difference won't save, help or stop anything.
Click to expand...
Actually it's significant enough that it can mean the difference between recovering your hearing sooner rather than later (assuming you don't negate the whole issue by experiencing auditory exclusion, which is not uncommon in gunfights). Not to mention the fact that the .357, as a high pressure round, produces a much larger night-vision-destroying muzzle flash.

uhhh are you serious? Home Invasions are an inherently "scary" process. Hence the number of folks who end up shooting through doors and doing other idiotic things that are difficult to explain in court later. Everything you said above is the way that we all feel, but the reality of the situation is that hits in a combat venue are hard to come by, police reports tell us this much.
Click to expand...
Of course they are. But trying to hit your opponent is the object of the excercise. Scaring him off is a purely secondary effect, and not something you can count on. And if the difference between the noise of the .45 and .357 is negligible, as you assert, what makes you think the .357 would be any more likely to scare him off than the .45?


Quote:
You feel like betting your life on that?

I actually detest this question. At the end of the day, I am betting my life on a $0.15 per unit hunk of brass and lead. A $0.05 spring on the hammer. A $2.00 light bulb / flash light bulb and batteries. A phone line that has been around since 1960. et cetera et cetera.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter whether or not you detest it, it's a valid question. I don't think the certainty of impairing my hearing and night vision to a significantly greater degree is an advantageous trade off for the remote and unknowable possibility of being more likely to scare off the intruder.

Betting that gun shots might conceivably scare a home invader is pretty safe. Aiming to hit is priceless eh?
Click to expand...
If you can scare him off, well and good. But if you can't, you'd certainly better be aiming to hit. You're responsible for where every one of those bullets goes.

Recoil is subjective... If you are using a 5" 1911 and comparing that to a .357 2" j frame, then yeah there is a BIG difference. If you compare it to a 4 or 5" N frame, it isn't that big.
Click to expand...
I notice quite a bit of difference between my Less Baer 1911 and my Colt Trooper Mk III. Slightly ligher recoil of the cartridge, combined with lower bore axis and a shorter trigger pull and reset all add up to a gun that I can fire significantly faster without sacrificing accuracy.

If you use Winchester 230 grain ball ammo, you are right, there is virtually no muzzle flash. If you are using other hollow point ammo, there is quite a bit of muzzle flash.
Click to expand...
I load the 1911 with Federal 230 grain hydra-shoks, which duplicate the flash of the standard 230 grain FMJ load quite closely, and it's considerably less than the flash of a 125gr .357 magnum JHP out of a four inch barrelled revolver (which is by far the most common bbl length for a defensive revolver).

I use .38+p's and have tested my ammo at night, specifically bought Winchester to keep flash down and I can live with the ammo I use. Not all .357 rounds shoot 10' of flame out the barrel... Not all .45 ammo produces one spark. Corbon 45 ammo, for instance, produces a tremendous muzzle flash. Federal 230 Hydrashock ammo ALSO produces a large flash. If you are practicing with your chosen ammo in a Combat setting (i.e. at the range, in low light) then you will mitigate risks you otherwise wouldn't have known about.
Click to expand...
I'm not calling your ammo choice a bad one. In fact I keep the aforementioned Trooper loaded with similar ammo in my house. Since I live alone, and don't have to worry about anyone else finding and playing around with a gun, I keep a couple of handguns stashed in strategic locations in my house. That may sound paranoid, but I happen to be a police detective, and it's not unheard off for officers to be targeted. We had someone take shots at the house of a female detective in our department year before last. I could also be the victim of a random break in. Since there's no possibility of kids or others getting their hands on any of my guns, I pay no penalty for having a few such weapons secreted around the house. If I get married and have kids, the balance of risks changes, and so will my arrangements.

But my bedside gun is a .45. My carry gun would be too if my department allowed the 1911.
 
.357 Magnums are actually a whopping 7.3 decibels louder than a .45 ACP. :eek:

Which makes the .357 Magnum even louder than a 12-gauge (18" barrel) shotgun and a 30-06 (18" barrel) rifle. :what:

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml


A scientist at the U.S. Department of Energy website explains the substantial difference that even 3 decibels makes:

"First, remember that the decibel (dB) is a logarithmic unit, meaning that you cannot add and subtract dB like ordinary numbers. For example, an increase of 3 dB is a doubling of the "strength" of the sound, and an increase of 10 dB means that the sound is 10 times as loud; i.e., 70 dB is 10 times as loud as 60 dB."

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99325.htm
 
This information came from handloads.com

Questions have been asked about stopping power and the differences.

All you can really do is look up the velocity of each round. And here it is this is the highest velocity I could find for each round.

45ACP 230gr. bullet 910 FPS

357Mag. 125gr bullet 1,966 FPS

as I said before this info can be found at www.handloads.com for anyone who wants to check my facts

enter the same caliber and bullet weight.

As far as wich ever is the best for personal protection??? The answer is wich ever one you can get a round in the center of the chest. A 22LR for all I care it has to go in the center of the chest.

Smithiac
 
.357 is more powerful, more versatile for field use. .45 Auto in an auto platform is arguably a better fighting combination, but not really a better self defense carry IMHO. Just depends on which one you like the most. I carry revolvers a lot in the field and some for self defense. I have a .45 ACP. I don't carry it much, but it's fun to shoot.

357Mag. 125gr bullet 1,966 FPS
Click to expand...

That load HAS to be out of a rifle. Most good self defense loads run a bit over 1400 fps from a 4" barrel. You can get a bit more from a handload.
 
Defensory said:
7.3 decibels
Click to expand...

Anything over 120 decibles catastrophic to hearing... The point is .357 .44 .45 doesn't matter, they are all over that level.

So don't kid yourself. Loud = Loud. I am not debating that the .357 isn't louder, I am saying that if you think that the margin is going to save your hearing, you are mistaken.

Get the amplified hearing muffs for indoor shooting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top