.357/Trail Boss/jacketed question

[16in50calNavalRifle]

I have contacted Hodgdon about this (Trail Boss is an IMR powder, but the IMR email contact came back undeliverable, so I just sent the email to Hodgdon) - we'll see if they get back to me.

Meanwhile, a question for the very wise reloaders of this forum - after I set the stage -

* loading 125 grain jacketed flat-points, in .357 brass - to avoid the carbon ring in the cylinders
* ammo is for a snub-nosed stainless revolver, 2.5-inch barrel
* "down-loading" to reduced pressures for reduced recoil - for practice, plinking, informal steels matches
* so far have loaded the above brass/bullet combo with 6.4g of Silhouette, and 4.8g of HP38 - these were, respectively, mid-range and upper range 38 special loads for these powders and a 125g jacketed bullet (following advice on this forum to avoid 38 special starting loads when using jacketed bullets for down-loaded 357)

Main issue here is not under-loading so as to get a stuck bullet. The two loads above, using 38 special data in the .357 case, produced fairly snappy recoil, and I'd like to reduce it.

Today I loaded some test rounds with smaller charges (6.2g Silhouette and 4.5g HP38, still both above starting 38 special loads). Not worried about these sticking a bullet, but as always will follow my cumbersome but safe procedure with test loads: use Shoot-N-C targets @ short range to confirm each bullet leaves the barrel, examine brass and bore carefully after each round, take careful notes on recoil and accuracy.

Question: I have been very happy with Trail Boss - especially the light recoil - in my regular 38 special lead bullet loads out of my K-frame, so would it be reasonable to try this powder with these 125g jacketed bullets?

I have no Trail Boss data for jacketed bullets (duh, it's made for lead). But I was comparing the 38/357 pressure data for Trail Boss with that for HP38. In 38 special, for a 125g XTP, the data show pressure @ max load of 4.9g HP38 at 16,300 CUP. In 357 Mag, for the max load of 5.3g of Trail Boss, and a LEAD RNFP, the data show 17,900 CUP.

Is it reasonable to conclude that since (as already shown by my first HP38 test loads) 16,300 CUP is more than adequate to push the jacketed bullets through the bore, then 17,900 CUP with Trail Boss will also be adequate? Or are the pressure data affected by the bullet used, so that I could not expect to get 17,900 CUP out of a jacketed bullet in a 357 case?

 

[Legionnaire]

You should be fine. If anything, I think you'd get higher pressure behind a jacketed bullet.

 

[rsrocket1]

If it gives you comfort, my favorite 38 special super light load is 2.5g Red Dot under a 158g lead RNFP. It generates about 9000 psi max pressure and averages 660 fps out of a 4" Ruger Service Six @ 10' from the muzzle. 16.3k is way more than enough to push a bullet out of a 2.5" barrel.

 

[Waywatcher]

Do not use Trail Boss with jacketed bullets in pistols. Wait until you hear back from IMR.

 

[Walkalong]

It will work, and the bullets will get out of the barrel, but the ES will be quite large. Trail Boss loves lead in pistol calibers, but not plated or jacketed. It behaves erratically with them. Been there done that. Gave it up. My last experiment was with the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC and 100% load density in .357 Mag brass. I loaded two test rounds with identical hand weighed charges. From a 6" Trooper MkIII they gave 517 FPS and 681 FPS for a 164 FPS difference. That would only get worse with a bigger sample batch.

 

[Legionnaire]

^^ I defer to the voice of experience. I have only shot TB with lead.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Thanks to all for your feedback.

Walkalong, I'm blanking on the meaning of ES at the moment - more coffee coming up - but I'm guessing variations in performance. And your experience is enough for me to skip the Trail Boss experiment for my snub-nose food. Exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for.

I'll see how my slightly reduced Silhouette/HP38 charges work out today if I can get to the range. The larger charges aren't bad - it's just that a nice thing about handloading is the ability to tweak ammo to one's particular needs and desires, and I'd love to have a soft-shooting round for my Magnum Carry.

Interesting how different powders work out in different loads and calibers. I got a pound of Silhouette just to try it out, because it seemed like a "broad spectrum" handgun powder and is slower than HP38, which is my main all-around handgun powder. So far it has been noticeably better (recoil, complete/clean burn) in a few loads, and it meters like sugar. I think I will use it for loading the 9mm 147g SD duplicate/practice ammo I plan to do - and based on my first test loads, will probably be the choice for my snub-nose ammo too.

 

[zxcvbob]

For .357 "light magnum" data, instead of looking at .38 Special +P data, try .38 Super Auto or .38 Super +P to get you in the ballpark, and ignore the difference between 124 grain and 125 grain bullets.

You can also find a powder (like Unique or Universal) that's listed for both .38 Special and .357 Magnum and start at the .38 Special max load and work up from there into in the big gap between .38 and .357 data until you find a load you like.

WSF should be a good powder for this. There's probably close to 100 good powders. But I wouldn't try Trailboss with j-bullets.

 

[IDriveB5]

ES - Extreme spread; the difference between the highest and lowest recorded velocity values.

It's a major consideration when the ranges get long. I'm not sure I would worry much for close range plinking ammuntion unless we are talking about an ES of 100 or something crazy like that.

Walkalong - What sort of ES are you seeing?

 

[rcmodel]

in my regular 38 special lead bullet loads out of my K-frame

I think you might be barking up the wrong tree.

The lighter shorter J-Frame snubby is just going to have snappier recoil then the heavier longer K-Frame.

And there is nothing you can do about it by changing powders.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong - What sort of ES are you seeing?

For very light plinking .357 ammo? Depends on many things. Anywhere from 40 to 80 is pretty good with plated or jacketed. Lead is much easier to get good ES numbers with.

The 158 Gr plated SWC load I tested today had an ES of 65 Powder Back, 77 Powder Forward, and 48 Powder Level for six shots each. All went through the same ragged hole at seven yards after going through the chrono at 5 yards.

Very light, very clean, very accurate. Good PB, PF, & PL numbers. Gonna go up .1 or .2 Grs and try it again, but as is it's a keeper in the light loads go.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Again thanks to all for the responses. As I said above, I will not attempt to make j-bullets work with Trail Boss.

Shot my second set of test loads (smaller charges of HP38 and Silhouette) this morning. They were both fine - in fact I fired them side-by-side with my larger charge loads and there was not much difference. And I have no fear of a stuck bullet with any of these loads (hmmm - did have 2 or 3 primers requiring a second strike to fire, though - will pay more attention to primer seating in my production run for this round, might have crushed a few).

Actually rc, revolver in question is a Colt Mag Carry and a bit beefier/heavier than a J-frame (I think) - but in any case I understand I cannot expect to find a snub-nose load that duplicates the recoil of a mild 38 special load with Trail Boss and a lead bullet. I think today's test rounds (6.2g Silhouette or 4.5g HP38, under a 125g total copper jacket flat-nose) will be fine.

 

[zxcvbob]

You never said why you were using light j-bullets. Have you considered using cast lead DEWC bullets in 357 brass? You can load those as mild or crazy-hot as you like, and everywhere in between. And you could use your Trailboss powder.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

zxcvbob, correct, I hadn't mentioned why I am using jacketed. At this point - new to reloading and this revolver is new to me - I just don't want to deal with leading issues (my Model 66 is giving me moderate hassle in this department).

This gun will not get a tremendous amount of use, at least in the near future. I am content to craft some light jacketed rounds for it - 357 brass to minimize cylinder fouling, jacketed bullets to avoid any leading issues. I want to use this revolver and develop some skill with it, but it is a rather uncommon Colt Magnum Carry in excellent condition, and I plan to baby it as well.

But as I gain experience and (one hopes) competence with reloading and lead (I load lead bullets in 9mm, 38spl, and 45ACP), I may well work some lead versions. Meanwhile I was happy to be able to pick up a few pounds of Trail Boss from a local shop (new store, want to do my part to help them make a go of it), which I will happily use in my 38spl ammo with MBC RNFP bullets.

 

[Waywatcher]

I have had very good luck with 4.1 (+/- 0.1) grains of Trail Boss under a 158 lead slug in .38 Special.

ES of 30, 769 to 799, out of my 4" GP100. Trail Boss and 158 lead in .38 special is a perfect match. 100% case fill, great accuracy, clean burning, and the least leading I've ever experienced. My best group was 3.0" out of the same GP100, using Speer's LSWCHP, for all 6 shots at 50 yards. (Yes yards!)

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why not shoot lead bullets if you are looking to make light practice ammo? You can safely push lead bullets slower than jacketed bullets so they will deliver less felt recoil. They are also cheaper to shoot.

As said above, Trail Boss is not recommended for jacketed bullets but you can do what you want as long as you know about Hodgdon's warning.

 

[16in50calNavalRifle]

Waywatcher, I think I might have a similar TB/158g lead bullet load I've already done. TB also makes a very nice light load with 125g RNFPs. My Model 66 is leading a bit, but as you all know that can be a result of many different things.

As I said I'm just exploring and learning right now. Surprised at how basically easy handloading is, and how much I enjoy it.

Thanks again to all here - what a great resource THR's membership is, especially for beginners.

 

[kanook]

Waywatcher Do not use Trail Boss with jacketed bullets in pistols. Wait until you hear back from IMR

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail Boss Reduced Loads R&P.pdf

It has been safe to use Trail boss with jacketed bullets for at least 3 yrs now

 

[Walkalong]

Safe is one thing, working well is another. It doesn't work well with jacketed bullets in pistol rounds, or at least in revolver rounds. Haven't tried it in auto pistol calibers.

It loves lead in revolver rounds though. It behaves vastly different with lead.

 

[Dnaltrop]

I've just noticed the vast difference in spread on Trail boss and Plated rounds...but I've spent the last 2 weeks wondering what the heck happened to my accuracy.

My Schofield isn't a tack driver, but it does decently at 50' with lead and TB.

I'm not casting yet, so I've been shooting more Berry's 225 .45 colts at closer ranges outdoors than I do at the range, never noticed anything abnormal about the Schofield spread inside of 20 feet. I brought it to the indoor range 2 weeks ago and could barely even touch the paper for 50 rounds at 50' with the TB loads, while the Clay's loaded rounds had much closer to "normal" accuracy at the longer range.