375 Ruger Alaskan vs. 1895G Guide Gun

[Gryffydd]

So I've been kicking around the idea of a nice handling relatively compact but heavy hitting rifle. Something that could do multiple jobs from DG hunting to bear defense to general hunting. Not that I'll be doing all of those, it's just a theoretical idea at the moment.

Usually the go to answer around here seems to the the Guide Gun, but I started thinking about the .375 Ruger Alaskan.

It's 3-3/4 inches longer and 1lb heavier, and holds 1 less round. However, the question I guess is whether the improved long range ballistics and superior performance (no matter what the Garrett Heads say) is worth the larger gun and possibly slower bolt action.

I also wonder where the .375 Ruger will be in 25 years.

I just like the idea that I could have bone crushing power at close range, but slap a different scope on and have a 300+ yard rifle, which I couldn't really do with the 1895G.

Am I just asking for too much from one gun?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Nope -- I'd go with the Ruger.

 

[KodiakBeer]

A better choice - .350 Rem Mag: http://www.remington.com/products/archived/centerfire/bolt-action/model-673-guide-rifle.aspx

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Remington-Model-673-350-Rem-Mag.cfm?gun_id=100132549

 

[Welding Rod]

Two things about the Ruger - I wouldn't buy one unless I could inspect it closely first... QC is all over with the Hawkeyes. Some are great, some never should have left the factory. Particularly worthy of inspection are safety movement, trigger break quality, and clocking of the iron sighted barrel.

Second, mine looks like it is going to be quite accurate. I only shot a few groups on paper with it, but believe it or not it was shootinig right around MOA for 5 shots.

 

[Gryffydd]

I only shot a few groups on paper with it, but believe it or not it was shootinig right around MOA for 5 shots.

I believe it. Almost every test I've seen for the .375s has put them right around 1 MOA for accuracy. That's one of the things pushing me in that direction.

That Remington looks pretty interesting too.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I hate Hawkeyes.

If it was a MKII (which I dont think exists in 375 Ruger) or even better, a plain ol' M77 (which does not exist in 375 ruger) then I would take that.

That Remington 673 I think is better than the 660 but they really need to end that vent rib barrel. The sights are huge and fast if you choose to use them.

 

[dakotasin]

i've never shot a guide gun, and never developed a load for one...

but i do have a ruger alaskan and i really like this gun. i have a target shot w/ factory 300 grain round noses that went 3 into .52 at 100 yards (i did record the lot # and bought several more boxes of that lot#).

after determining there was potential for accuracy, i developed a handload for it using 300 grain btsp's. i worked a load up w/ rl-17 and found the rifle could indeed consistently stay under moa from the bench. the rifle is a great one. i put a 2.5-8x leupold on mine, and have done pretty extensive field position shooting w/ it. using only holdover and shooting from field positions i have not had much difficulty hitting 8" paper plates out to 450 yards.

i guess i don't care where the 375 ruger will be in 25 years. people that want a little more pep than a 375 h&h without the outright abuse of the 375 rum or 378 wby, will see the value of the 375 ruger. the 375 ruger does recoil pretty hard, so it is not a bench gun, but it truly is fun to shoot from field positions. at least i enjoy the gun.

also realize the 375 ruger, like all big bore chamberings, is kind of a specialty item here in the u.s., and is not likely to be real popular.

i'm happy w/ my 375 ruger, and would purchase it again w/o hesitation.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The beauty of the .350 Rem Mag is that it fits into a true .308 length short action. I had one built by the Remington custom shop on a model seven action some ten years ago and I couldn't be happier.

 

[earlthegoat2]

That is a sweet rifle KodiakBeer.

I like full stocks quite a bit. And a 350 RM to boot.

 

[Gryffydd]

That is a nice setup Kodiak. I like it a lot better than that vent-ribbed look.
The .350 doesn't quite reach the top end of the .375, but I don't know that I'd need it, and the short action part is nice.

 

[KodiakBeer]

No, it won't match the ballistics of the .375, but you can still get respectable velocity with 250 grainers. I recently learned somebody is making a 300 grain .35 slug and I'll have to get around to checking that out one of these days.

I don't get the vent rib either. They're trying to copy the original model 600, which was specifically designed and marketed as a fast-action dangerous game gun for bear guides, with the rib as an aid in quick target acquisition. They should just offer it as a chambering in the standard Model 7, in my opinion.

 

[jmr40]

I'd go bolt action. There are other options for light handy rifles in larger calibers. 35 Whelen, or 338-06 is are options to consider.

 

[Greg Koziol]

Guide gun is the original professional guide and self defense rifle for a reason, because its modest barrel length give you enough accuracy without being too long to fit through bushes and comfortable to carry and pack. But powerful enought to knockdown the biggest game.

If you think the .45-70 is a weak cartridge your wrong. They are only weak because remington and other factory ammo downloads them to avoid being sued if someone throw a hot load in an old school rifle the breech will blow up. But in a modern marlin lever action it can handle way more power then the factories load them up to

I just bought a box of buffalo for my marlin1895 22"

405 grain soft points @ 2000fps!!! Thats approach .458 winmag levels, plus you have faster cocking because its a lever, greater cartridge capacity.. up to 7 if you buy an SBL, and a lighter better handling gun. I'd take a guide gun over any heavy clunky and slow loading bolt gun any day of the week in bear country of even in africa

Grizzly cartridges sells a 405 grain brass SOLID @ 2050 fps!!! you can down an elephant with that!!! I'd keep a few of those in bear country, and a few of the buffalo bores and your set!!

You can get a red dot and/or ghost ring set up and your set man!!

 

[Greg Koziol]

Think about this:

A brown bear can run 2x-3x as fast as the fast person. Most NFL players can run a 40 in 4-6 seconds. So that means a bear can run a 40 in 1 or 2 seconds. HAve you ever seen how fast they are on discovery channel videos?? So you spot a bear at 100 yards and piss him off or he wants to eat you... he'll be up on you in 5 SECONDS OR LESS. Now it takes 1 second to simply react and take the safety off of your gun, another one or 2 seconds to raise the gun and aim it, if you have a scope your all ready ****ed you might as well not even take a shot and wait for him to smash into you and take a hip shot to his brain or neck while he's mauling you to death...if you survive the collision and he didn't knock the gun out of your hand. So if you have iron sights by the time you even have your sights on him he's less than 75 yards and closing at 40 miles per hour. You try to steady your gun on his head for a quick brain shot but the target is too small and his head is bobbing up and down, by that point he's less than 50 yards and closing. Now if your extremely lucky you'll hit him in the brain but that would be less thanlikely, more then likely you'll hit him in the chest or shoulder area which may or may not stop the charge, most likely it will not stop the charge... he won't even feel it because he'll be so enraged.. then if you have that .375 ruger bolt gun you have to slide the bolt out, slide it back in, which will take another 3 seconds, and then by that point your in his jaws and you've felt the full force of impact of an 800 pound animal running you over at 40 miles per hour, your disoriented your gun is out of your hands the impact knocking it some where out of reach, he flips out over on your back and you can't turn over to fight him or even get a shot off cause he's 800 pounds and sitting on your back trying to kill you by crushing your skull, which is often noted by bear biologists when study bear attacks. Lights out, time to see the Big man upstairs

 

[Girodin]

then if you have that .375 ruger bolt gun you have to slide the bolt out, slide it back in, which will take another 3 seconds

It takes you 3 seconds to work the bolt on a rifle?

 

[Gryffydd]

If you think the .45-70 is a weak cartridge your wrong.

My wrong what now?
Anyhoo, I never said it was weak, only that it's not up to the level of the .375 Ruger, which is the ballistic twin of the .375 H&H.

405 grain soft points @ 2000fps!!! Thats approach .458 winmag levels

405@2000 is a long way away from 405@2400. For that matter the .458WM can push a 510gr to 2100fps. It's kind of similar to saying the .308 Winchester approaches the .300 Win Mag.

greater cartridge capacity.. up to 7

How many rounds can I get through in the 1-2 second grizzly charge you're describing?

It takes you 3 seconds to work the bolt on a rifle?

I'm not sure how long it takes me, but it's sure not 3 seconds, though I would say the lever probably does have a speed advantage. I just question how many rounds I'd have time to get off in a situation like that to begin with.

 

[rogertc1]

How about one of these ....


and one of these?

 

[jmr40]

While Marlin advertises their short barreled 1895 as a guide gun, very few guides actually use them. The overwhelming choice to backup their clients both in Alaska and Alaska is the big bore bolt gun. Some, who can afford them still prefer the double rifle.

Once you put a heavy load in one of the Marlins it will be no faster for repeat shots than the bolt rifle.

The bolt gun will not only offer equal speed for repeat shots. It is also more powerful, and more dependable in harsh conditions. If you can stand the recoil they can also be had in rifles that are lighter than the Marlin.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Guide gun is the original professional guide and self defense rifle for a reason, because its modest barrel length give you enough accuracy without being too long to fit through bushes and comfortable to carry and pack. But powerful enought to knockdown the biggest game.

Actually, I love my Marlin Guide Gun, but it isn't the original. The Remington Model 600 .350 Rem. Mag was marketed in the early 60's as a guide gun, specifically for brown bear guides. They are still quite popular here and a lot of guides still use them.

 

[Jim Watson]

I once saw a Remington 660 (600 action but no ugly plastic vent rib) .350 that had been restocked Mannlicher with a steel floorplate and trigger guard. Neat and handy.

After they had the 660 I don't understand why they brought back the ugly plastic vent rib on the 673.

 

[Maverick223]

.375H&H...accept no substitute!

Don't get me wrong the Marlin 1895GG chambered for the .45-70Govt. is no wimp, but it makes a better defense carbine than hunting rifle in many cases (hunting in brush being the obvious exception).

The Ruger may very well be a fine cartridge, and match or even best the .375H&H, but Mr. Holland got it right nearly 100yrs ago. The long taper promotes loading and deters stuck cases despite the relative high pressure (for a dangerous game cartridge), which can be a significant advantage if required to use the rifle for as it was designed. Pair it with a proper CRF action like a Mauser, M-70, CZ, or a Ruger and you have a bona fide big bear slayer. Despite the common belief, both .45-70Govt. and .375H&H (and I am sure the .375Ruger) perform well on smaller game such as deer and elk when loaded appropriately. Also the .375 cals. offer a trajectory similar to the .30-06 when loaded with similar bullets (comparing spitzers to spitzers and RNs to RNs), so moderate and long range shots are performed with relative ease compared to the lumbering giant (which is incapable of shots exceeding about 200yds without a high degree of skill).

 

[Gryffydd]

.375H&H...accept no substitute!

I do like a lot of things about the .375 H&H over the .375 Ruger
-longer case neck
-as you said, the long taper is nice
-it's lasted this long, it'll likely last a lot longer. i.e. I won't be scrounging for brass 30 years from now
-more load data available
-available in a wider variety of factory rifles

I just can't decide if that is enough to make up for the .375 Ruger's advantages
-better performance in shorter barrels (especially important for this application)
-available in shorter, lighter actions (also important for this application)
-Rifles tend to be a bit cheaper as they're standard actions

 

[GooseGestapo]

APPLES vs. ORANGES

First, I wouldn't consider the Ruger .375. In 5yrs It'll be a footnote in reference books.

Having been to Alaska (yeah, a total of 11 days, but I learned a lot. And my older brother spent 5yrs in Anchorage, and my nephew (his son) spent 3yrs at Fort Greely (near Fairbanks).

You can find .375 H&H ammo in the Walmart at Talkeetna, and Hardware store in Skagway (saw it myself!!!) Not to mention most anywhere else ammo is sold. Try that with the .375Ruger.......

Having shot several .375H&H's and owning several .45/70's, I can say that they're totally different animals. (one a medium bore and fast, the other big bore, and not so fast.....) Like a line-backer vs. an offensive lineman.

I would suggest that if you're going to spend time in AK, take one of each.

I find that I prefer my M1895GG with a Williams Guide reciever sight and fire-sight front, sighted in for my "usual" load, and the Folding rear sight folded down, but sighted in for the "HEAVY" loads (ususal is an RCBS .459" 300gr FNGC which casts to 318gr with aircooled w/w and lubed with SPG. This is loaded over 30.0gr of #2400 for 1650fps. It'll drop anything alive, but dosen't have the extra margin as a "stopper" for the great bears (brown/grizzly). The receiver sight can quickly and easily be re-set for the heavy load by referencing the folding rear sight.

The heavy load is the Lee .459" 405gr HB cast from w/w with 3-5% 95/5 lead-free solder added (tin-antimony) and heat-treated to about 25-27bhn, and then loaded over 50.0gr of either IMR4064, Varget, or RL15 (not a significant difference between them). The velocity is about 1,900fps from the non-ported 18.5"bbl. Accuracy with either is 1.5-2" at 100yds (5-shots).

Inside 100yds there won't be any arguable difference in "stopping" ability. However, the Marlin will more likely be in your hands and "ready" when something "happens".(shorter and MUCH lighter). Also, from extensive experience shooting deer and pigs, I can attest that subsequent follow-up shots are much faster with a lever-action than the b/a. (I've got 5 L/a cf's, and over a dozen b/a's and I've shot hundreds of head of big-game. (-retired game and fish officer, PPC competitor {took 2nd place in shotgun match in 2002, second highest score ever fired- 550-5x -possible is 550-10x, nat. record is 550-6x shot two relays after my score. Perfect score hasn't been shot since (even by me.......)} I used a Remington M870 with factory open sights (10rds are slugs, 5@ 50yds) and required 1oz slugs and 9pellet buckshot loads). The 5rds at 25yds have to be fired in 10sec, starting with the gun butt under the arm/shoulder. 15yd slugs, 5shots in 5sec., 4 different targets !!! So, you do have to shoot quick, and accurately !!!) But, we're not discussing shotguns.................

I know of several guides that use the guide-guns as backups. One has his GG, and another assistant with a 10ga Browning p/a loaded with 000-buck when tracking/approaching a wounded bear.... Sometimes though, it's the GG and a .375 or .458wm however, or the latter two and the 10ga. Whatever they have that day....... Read Scoville's (Wolf publishing) for his articles on hunting with Ed Stevenson in AK. Ed is a big lever-action fan.

The .350 is a good gun/cart. I would suggest a Remington Custom shop Mod-7 Alaskan (synthetic/stainless), as I believe that the 673 has been discontinued, and .350mag ammo is very rare, even from online sources. (I've wanted one in 6.5 BADLY, and let a .350 slip by me....)

I've got a Marlin .338ME, but the jury hasn't even been convened on this cartridge. My reloading/shooting efforts suggest a near clone of the likewise rare .358win. My personal choice of a second gun will be my MkX Mauser in .338/06. It has nearly the punch of the .375 (2,550fps w/250gr bullet) and instead of the 3+1 of the H&Hmag, It'll hold 5+1. In case the bear/moose just refuses to die. I've got a Leupold VariX-II 3x-9x 50mm w/heavy duplex reticle. Also, barrel wears a set of Williams guide open sights sighted to 100yds with 250gr load. Base and rigs are Leupold turn-in. Gun wears a Hogue Stock, with LOP reduced to 12-3/4" for rapid shouldering w/cold-wet weather clothes on. Besides this, I took my first deer with this rifle in it's previous life as a factory MkX Classic in .30/06 in 1976. A lot of sentimental attachment. It's ironic that the friend who owned the property was hunting with me at the time, was carrying a Ruger #3 in .45/70....

I'd suggest that you try to run down a Savage Weather-Warrior Stainless .375H&H guide gun. They make such an animal as I saw one in the Walmart in Talkeetna, AK in early June of '09. I had the exceptionally knowledgeable clerk (in his mid '50s) take it from the case for me to look at. It had Guide-Gun laser etched on the bolt. Walmar asking price was $678.00. Haven't found anyother references in print or on-line to this gun. It may be a Walmart specific gun. They also had at least 5 different loads/makes for the .375H&H on the shelf, including the Federal Premium-Partition, and CapeShok, Winchester silvertip, and Remington Corlokts mostly in 270gr. I did see a 300gr load but can't remember what it was. This gun WILL require the stock be shortened for rapid shouldering by anyone under 6'2 however...... 13-5/8" LOP as-is, is my guess.

So, it's really a matter of choice and where you'll be hunting. If on the Kenai Pen., I'd take the .375h&h (tide flats-open shots) with a removeable low power scope. If in dense coastal lower AK, I'd choose the .45/70. Or preferably, both. AND A 12ga pump shotgun.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

To all you folks that have a .350 rem. magnum I hope you carry it a lot and only have to shoot it once in a while. I bought a used rem. 600 decades ago (when scopes wouldn't hold their zero) and mounted a lyman 48 receiver sight). Then I proceeded to sight it in. Turns out I needed a lower front sight (as I recall). Anyway after putting about 10 rounds thru it, I put it away, took a handful of asprin as my shoulder, neck, teeth and other body parts were killing me. When I got home I put in the back of my closet where it sat for several more decades. I finally sold it to Wild West Guns in Anchorage and never looked back. That was the hardest kicking gun I have ever fired. It only weighed 6 1/2 lbs.

In hindsight, I wish I had it now as I could download it to about a .35 rem. and it would make a great deer/hog rifle.

I have shot a .45-70 and the recoil is more of a push compared to the .350 which is more like a bomb going off.

 

[dakotasin]

First, I wouldn't consider the Ruger .375. In 5yrs It'll be a footnote in reference books.

ohh, i don't think i'd put money on that statement.

the 375 ruger will outperform the h&h in lighter, less expensive guns without abusing the shooter too much. you pick up 100-200 f/s in a gun that you can actually carry and hunt with, even mountain terrain.

it does not have the history of the h&h, and the h&h has a tremendous market share, but the h&h didn't have the history or market share 100 years ago, either. give the ruger a little time - i think it is a chambering that is long overdue. outperforms the h&h, doesn't abuse like the rum or wby.

as noted above, the 375's are a specialty piece because the lack of need in most of north america (arguably, all of n.a.), but as more shooters touch off the ruger and find it to be tolerable in recoil and outperform the h&h it will gain in popularity... even moreso if a gun maker besides ruger offers it (a rem 700 would certainly do it, but would probably ring the 375 rum's death bell... winchester 70? cz? a sako would seal the deal...).