beerman 45-70
Member
i want to load cartridges with bp. have not had good luck with accuracy. tried 35grs swiss 1 1/2 ----309gr lead bullet----0.060 wad. any suggestions.
38-55
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TomADC
Member
Did you slug the barrel to make sure you have the right size bullet?
I haven't shot mine yet hoping to do so next week.
I haven't shot mine yet hoping to do so next week.
Jim Watson
Member
I load .38-55 for a Single Shot with 40.6 gr Swiss 1 1/2 and a 336 gr Lyman at .379", lubed with SPG. A .030" Walters wad, powder compressed about the thickness of the wad or a little more.
You need more powder and be sure you have real black powder bullet lube.
You need more powder and be sure you have real black powder bullet lube.
beerman 45-70
Member
i'll slug the barrel today. and the only difference from jim's reciepe is amount of powder, so i'll kick up the powder and test for group. thank you both for the input, i'll let you know how i make out.
TomADC
Member
I really like the Swiss 1.5 I use it in my 45-70's also, takes very little compression to make it right.
higene
Member
I put together a 38-55 Contender carbine. I plan to shoot BP in it. First I had to get some cases and test some bullets that I had laid up. I had JSPs in 200 and 220 grain and 245 cast bullets.
I sighted the rifle in at 25 yards with the 200 and 220s. It came right in and seemed real consistent. The bad news is that the 245 cast bullets which I had high hopes for were real inconsistent - all over the place and no grouping.
The JSPs stayed tight at 50 and the Cast 245s continued to disappoint me.
I took the JSP 200s to the 100 yard line and tried them out. I got serious fall on your a$$ problems (3 in from 50 to 100) but the bullets grouped well.
What does this have to do with BP. Before I load BP I gots to know what the gun likes - not what I want it to like.
I plan to go with 50 gr of Swiss fff and 200 JSPs, 245 Cast, and 265 spire points.
I weill post the results when I get 'er done.
I sighted the rifle in at 25 yards with the 200 and 220s. It came right in and seemed real consistent. The bad news is that the 245 cast bullets which I had high hopes for were real inconsistent - all over the place and no grouping.
The JSPs stayed tight at 50 and the Cast 245s continued to disappoint me.
I took the JSP 200s to the 100 yard line and tried them out. I got serious fall on your a$$ problems (3 in from 50 to 100) but the bullets grouped well.
What does this have to do with BP. Before I load BP I gots to know what the gun likes - not what I want it to like.
I plan to go with 50 gr of Swiss fff and 200 JSPs, 245 Cast, and 265 spire points.
I weill post the results when I get 'er done.
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rdstrain49
Member
What lube are you using on the cast slugs? It makes a big difference, make that a huge difference. Good luck.
beerman 45-70
Member
today i tested some loads the best was 338gr lead---40.4grs of 1 1/2 swiss---0.060 wad--- large rifle primer---spg lube. next time out i will change the primer
beerman 45-70
Member
pokyman i didn't need much compression guess about3/32. with the best load i shot a 3" group at 100 yards---open sights. i think i can get it tighter will keep trying. beerman
Jim Watson
Member
That ain't bad for open sights.
I can hold closer with peep and globe and that might be your next upgrade, if you don't mind me spending your money.
I can hold closer with peep and globe and that might be your next upgrade, if you don't mind me spending your money.
beerman 45-70
Member
jim, sometimes i wonder if i can ever get back to when i had young eyes, i see on another thd someone else has old eyes.
Jim Watson has a good point concerning sights. If you are using open sights like those used on lever rifles, 3" isn't bad. The front sight often covers the target, so you can't see better than 3" anyway. If using high quality sights (read very expensive) sights like those used for Black Powder Silhouette shooting then 3" is not very good. A group of about 1" at 100 is average.
I am not sure what you mean by all you need is 3/32 compression. The way I determine how much compression is most accurate is to start with ~1/16 compression and keep increasing compression until accuracy fall off. Most of my Black Powder rifles like compression ~3/16".
I have a Trap Door Springfield 45-70 that I had trouble getting to shoot well with "light" powder compression. With the new 45-70 cases now available, I figured that case capacity as compared to the old balloon head cases was less, so less powder was needed. As it turned out, the rifle did not shoot well until I reached a load of 70 gr. of 1 1/2 Swiss and 500 gr. bullet. The load equal to the original military load for the Trap Door. Now the rifle will shoot less than 1 1/2 at 100 yds. How much compression does ittake to get 70 gr. of black behind that bullet? A LOT!!
When talking Black Powder, the brand of powder also needs consideration. Just like modern rifles, dfferent brands of Black shoot better is some rifles than others.
The hands down favorite powder for competitive cartridge rifle shooters is Swiss, then Shuetzen, then Goex. Goex used to have excellent powder, however since their move from Pennsylvania their powder has not been as good velocity or accuracy wise.
I am not sure what you mean by all you need is 3/32 compression. The way I determine how much compression is most accurate is to start with ~1/16 compression and keep increasing compression until accuracy fall off. Most of my Black Powder rifles like compression ~3/16".
I have a Trap Door Springfield 45-70 that I had trouble getting to shoot well with "light" powder compression. With the new 45-70 cases now available, I figured that case capacity as compared to the old balloon head cases was less, so less powder was needed. As it turned out, the rifle did not shoot well until I reached a load of 70 gr. of 1 1/2 Swiss and 500 gr. bullet. The load equal to the original military load for the Trap Door. Now the rifle will shoot less than 1 1/2 at 100 yds. How much compression does ittake to get 70 gr. of black behind that bullet? A LOT!!
When talking Black Powder, the brand of powder also needs consideration. Just like modern rifles, dfferent brands of Black shoot better is some rifles than others.
The hands down favorite powder for competitive cartridge rifle shooters is Swiss, then Shuetzen, then Goex. Goex used to have excellent powder, however since their move from Pennsylvania their powder has not been as good velocity or accuracy wise.
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higene
Member
38-55 Range Work
Another day of my second childhood spent in search of the perfect 38-55 load.
I tested four loads today.
* 200 JSP - 55 gr fff Swiss
* 220 JSP - 32 gr 4198
* 245 Cast - 20 gr 4198
* 245 Cast - 50 gr fff Swiss
The 245 cast with 50 gr BP shot so poorly at 25 yds that I could not advance them to the next round. This is a real disappointment. I am considering different cast bullets possibly with gas checks. These cast bullets are Magnus .379s dia - 38/55 Cal.
The 200 JSPs shot well with a full load of 55 gr FFF Swiss at 25 and 50. They also showed promise at 100. They are .375 dia. Sierras.
The 245 cast bullets shot much better with a low charge of 4198. I'm not real excited. I have 44 special loads that are probably clocking better speeds from a 4" revolver?? I did not have enough of these made up to try at 100.
I shot the 220 Hornady JSPs at 100 only. They are top end loads with 32 gr of 4198.
So 220s with Smokeless, 200s with FFF Swiss, and 245 with 20 gr 4198 were tops so far.
Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.
Higene
Another day of my second childhood spent in search of the perfect 38-55 load.
I tested four loads today.
* 200 JSP - 55 gr fff Swiss
* 220 JSP - 32 gr 4198
* 245 Cast - 20 gr 4198
* 245 Cast - 50 gr fff Swiss
The 245 cast with 50 gr BP shot so poorly at 25 yds that I could not advance them to the next round. This is a real disappointment. I am considering different cast bullets possibly with gas checks. These cast bullets are Magnus .379s dia - 38/55 Cal.
The 200 JSPs shot well with a full load of 55 gr FFF Swiss at 25 and 50. They also showed promise at 100. They are .375 dia. Sierras.
The 245 cast bullets shot much better with a low charge of 4198. I'm not real excited. I have 44 special loads that are probably clocking better speeds from a 4" revolver?? I did not have enough of these made up to try at 100.
I shot the 220 Hornady JSPs at 100 only. They are top end loads with 32 gr of 4198.
So 220s with Smokeless, 200s with FFF Swiss, and 245 with 20 gr 4198 were tops so far.
Your comments and suggestions are appreciated.
Higene
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higene
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beerman 45-70
Member
i shoot a38-55 single shot rifle with soule sights at steel targets at, 100,150,200, 250,300, 350and 400 yards. ionly use cast bullets . my smokeless loads are 21grs of 4198 with a 245 gr bullet. i'm trying bp loads of, 338gr casr bullet, lrm primers .060 over powder wad, spg lube, swiss 1 1/2 42grs to 46grs. and also swiss 3fg. will not be able to test these loads till next monday 3/28. glad to hear from you we'll keep in touch. beerman
beerman 45-70
Member
higene by the way i,m testing at 100 yds on paper. beerman
zimmerstutzen
Member
Every rifle barrel has it's own little quirks. First you didn't say what kind of rifling, twist and configuration of rifling makes a big difference. Older style rifling with deeper grooves usually does better with softer lead, while shallow grooves tend to do better with harder alloy bullets or even copper jackets. When shooting black powder, I would not shoot copper jacketed anything. The tolerances for copper jackets do not accomodate blak powder fouling vry well. Lead does a better job with fouling. As another said, lube should be appropriate for black powder. Alox is terrible for black powder.
You need a bullet that fills the rifling without too much distortion, so slugging is very important for any bullet. In addition, free bore ahead of the chamber can destroy accuracy. If your chamber allows it, try seating the bullets out far enough so that the bullet is up to or even partially into the rifling when chambered. (Next to impossible with very hard or jacketed bullets.)
For instance micro-groove rifling almost universally requires a hard alloy bullet. An old original may have the soft metal rifling swaged smooth by shooting copper jacket bullets. (As was done by shooting copper jacket bullets in old Trapdoors.)
Your question entails much more than, what to shoot in a 38-55. A modern steel microgroove barrel with close tolerances will probably do terrible with black powder and soft lead bullets. Same is true for an old deep rifled soft steel barrel using hard copper jacketed bullets. My old trapdoors prefer pure lead bullets. My rebarreled hepburn has old style black powder rifling and also doess better with soft lead bullets. My original Martini Henry rifles have choked rifle bores and shooting hard alloy bullets can be dangerous. Soft lead bullets have no problem being swaged down a few thousandths as they pass through the chokes. Hard bullets may cause ruptured barrels when they hit one of the chokes. It will treat it as a bore obstruction.
Lastly, some rifling is great so long as the bore is swabbed between shots, some will perform fair to better with out swabbing between shots. The necessity of swabbing the bore can be affected is you find a good lube that keeps the black powder fouling soft so it is scraped out by the next shot. Just as in muzzleloading, consistency from shot to shot is the key, so if fouling is the same from shot to shot, accuracy will be better than when it builds up over a string of shots.
You need a bullet that fills the rifling without too much distortion, so slugging is very important for any bullet. In addition, free bore ahead of the chamber can destroy accuracy. If your chamber allows it, try seating the bullets out far enough so that the bullet is up to or even partially into the rifling when chambered. (Next to impossible with very hard or jacketed bullets.)
For instance micro-groove rifling almost universally requires a hard alloy bullet. An old original may have the soft metal rifling swaged smooth by shooting copper jacket bullets. (As was done by shooting copper jacket bullets in old Trapdoors.)
Your question entails much more than, what to shoot in a 38-55. A modern steel microgroove barrel with close tolerances will probably do terrible with black powder and soft lead bullets. Same is true for an old deep rifled soft steel barrel using hard copper jacketed bullets. My old trapdoors prefer pure lead bullets. My rebarreled hepburn has old style black powder rifling and also doess better with soft lead bullets. My original Martini Henry rifles have choked rifle bores and shooting hard alloy bullets can be dangerous. Soft lead bullets have no problem being swaged down a few thousandths as they pass through the chokes. Hard bullets may cause ruptured barrels when they hit one of the chokes. It will treat it as a bore obstruction.
Lastly, some rifling is great so long as the bore is swabbed between shots, some will perform fair to better with out swabbing between shots. The necessity of swabbing the bore can be affected is you find a good lube that keeps the black powder fouling soft so it is scraped out by the next shot. Just as in muzzleloading, consistency from shot to shot is the key, so if fouling is the same from shot to shot, accuracy will be better than when it builds up over a string of shots.
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