.38 bullets for a 9mm load?

[Noxx]

I'm thinking about loading up some heavy 9mm rounds, 115gr bullets just don't kick over a bowling pin with the proper degree of satisfaction.

The heaviest 9mm around is of course 147gr, with a dia. of .355/.356

In .38 I could go to 158gr, the caveat being that extra thousandth,at .357. A thousandth of an inch doesn't seem like much to me, but I don't want to ding up my barrel unneccesarily either.

Any feedback on this idea?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I've heard of loading .356" 9mm bullets in a .38 Special before but I don't think I know anyone who ever loaded a .357" bullet for a 9mm. I really wouldn't take the chance and by no means try to load a .358" bullet for a 9mm barrel.

Penn Bullets will custom size your bullets for no extra charge. Under their .38 Caliber bullet section they have a 148 gr WC that they will size to .356". They also have a 180 gr TCBB bullet they will size to .356" but I don't know if a 9mm will shoot a 180 gr bullet even if it is the right diameter.
Take a look here: http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

I'm sure there are other bullet manufacturers who will do the same but I don't know of any that will do it free like Penn does. Good luck and be very careful what you load. I don't think it's safe to use a .357" bullet in a 9mm.

 

[peterotte]

Noxx
We are talking cast bullets here right?
If you follow normal load development procedures your barrel will be fine. The swaging force will be relatively small compared to the inertia of the heavier bullet, and anyway, shooting un-sized or oversize cast bullets is done quite often for accuracy. In a revolver, a soft lead bullet upsets in the forcing cone before being swaged to fill the bore. The heavier bullet may well allow you to operate your pistol at lower pressures but bullet stability may be your main issue. You will not have much powder space. My 9mm liked round nose bullets, driven hard to stabilise. Lighter bullets shot well but required higher pressures to cycle the gun.

Regards
Peter

 

[Noxx]

Yeah I had planned on using LRN for this experiment. Normally I stickto plated bullets, but considering the slightly oversized round I imagine lead would be more suitable.

 

[Noxx]

Thanks for the link BTW,Penn looks like just the thing, and the prices are reasonable.

 

[peterotte]

Plated bullets should be OK. I'd be worried about jacketed bullets.

Regards
Peter

 

[Ditchtiger]

I've reloaded .358 swc in 9mm. Fired them out of a P11 and a 92 Taurus. Works OK,nothing great, but the longer bullet seats deeper and will bulge some shells and not feed. 90% worked just fine

 

[ReloaderFred]

There have been several magazine articles over the years about loading heavy bullets in 9mm. I've done it with .357" diameter 158 grain bullets and it's no big thing. You can use either lead or plated, since they're both soft.

Handloader Magazine has an article in Issue # 173 on that very subject. You can order it from Wolfe Publishing Company.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Noxx]

Thanks for all the feedback folks.

It looks like the diameter wont be a problem, as the penn bullets linked can be had in .356. Now my only concern is seating and max C.O.L. with something like a 180gr tcbb round. gonna get some numbers from Penn and see how everything adds up.

 

[wolf_from_wv]

Penn will give you load data for their bullets... They told me to load 9mm with regular loads.

Heavy loads in the 9mm:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/18

 

[Harley Quinn]

The bullet design might be as much of a problem as the weight for those pins Jim Cirillo talks about the lack of purchase with the type of bullet design and not imparting the energy to the target.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/38-45_safestop.htm

 

[ReloaderFred]

Unfortunately, Jim Cirillo was killed in a traffic accident this year. He was quite the "man".

Fred

 

[KI.W.]

The stubid testing.

I was shooting copperbladet .357 castbullets with T/C Contender 9mm Luger( 4,6gr VihtaVuori N-350 oal 1,14"). Result was good. But shooting with .357 Rem maximum with 9mm FMJ- bullets it was miserable.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Unfortunately, Jim Cirillo was killed in a traffic accident this year. He was quite the "man".

True, a sad day for many besides his family The man was a legend and did a lot for the design that came later for all to realize and benefit.

I have his book and enjoy reading it at different times.

He was one that helped pave the way for better hand guns and bullet design.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Noxx,
I'm glad my link was helpful. I agree, they do have fair prices.
Like said above, Penn will assist with loading data, just email them. IMO a normal charge will be fine. They extra pressure developed because of the space taken up by the bullet will probably be needed to launch a bullet that heavy. The good news is, you won't need to use more powder!! LOL

 

[rcmodel]

You will run into case bulging problems in some guns with that heavy a bullet in the 9mm case.

The thicker case web runs up the sidewall quite a ways in the 9mm and there is not enough room for the bullet base when seated to deep enough to function through a magazine.

They my bulge enough that you can't get them to chamber. If you run them through a Lee Factory Crimp die to iron out the bulge, it will squeeze down the bullet base also, and may effect accuracy quite a bit.
It can also cause blow-by and cause barrel leading.


rcmodel

 

[Noxx]

Heavy loads in the 9mm:
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech...h_notes.htm/18
__________________

And that's why I love you guys. Got a question? Someones got an extremely detailed and valuable answer. Right on.

 

[Clark]

I shoot 158 gr LSWC and 158 gr XTP almost exclusively in 9x23mm.

I shoot 158 gr XTP sometimes in my Kel-Tec P11 9x19mm.
That is the most power I can get, but also the most recoil.

There is no spike in pressure from swaging a larger bullet down into a smaller barrel, but there is a pressure spike if the bullet can't get started.

This phenomena of large bullets working in a small bore without
pressure spikes is documented in P.O. Ackley 1966 "Handbook for Shooters
and Reloaders Vol 2" chapter 7
"additional pressure tests":
"..30 cal barrel pressure barrel was fitted to the test gun, but the
neck and throat was enlarged to accept the 8mm bullet, with the bore
remaining the standard 30 caliber. A Remington factory 30-06 cartridge
with the 150 gr bullet had been tested and previously gave 57,300 psi,
for a velocity of 3030 fps. The the bullets were pulled from two more
Remington 150 grain cartridges and were replaced with 8mm 150 grain
bullets. To everyone's surprise, although the velocity was rather
erratic, these loads averaged 2901
fps, with a pressure of 40,700 psi."


What does it all mean?
I always check every round with a bigger bullet, to make sure it will drop into the chamber and the chamber can close, with out getting stuck.

 

[peterotte]

That is interesting Clark. The pressure is a lot lower than I might have expected. That is surprising! I would have expected only a small reduction. We know that a 308 can be fired in a 270 and sometimes the 270 survives. That is a bit different as the cartridge is now head-spaced on the bullet against the chamber throat. That should cause quite a pressure spike!

Also interesting is that you get the most power from a heavier bullet. (And that it stabilizes). That has been my contention for some time. I use that principle to estimate expected velocities with heavier bullets while maintaining the same pressures with the same powder. I do find it hard to read pressure signs so I double check this way, comparing with a known pressure. (I am talking about pressures well below the failure point of the cartridge components).

Regards
Peter

 

[Jim Watson]

My old Lyman manual, ca 1967, shows 9mm P loads with their 158 gr RN above 1000 fps with stout loads of Unique and Herco. Must have been tough on their Model 39.

 

[Clark]

That notion that stuck bullets are trouble and that big bullets are not is completely counter intuitive.

I can tell myself now that if the pressure spike of swaging the bullet is not concurrent with the peak of the burn, then the peaks do not add.

But hindsight is 20-20.

 

[Sunray]

"...kick over a bowling pin..." That's why the pin set up for 9mm events is different than the regular set up. The pins are set closer to the back of the table. Just knocking a pin over doesn't count for any event except .22 events.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Noxx,
Now that it seems you've gotten the answers you were looking for I have a question. Since the 9mm really isn't associated with Bowling Pin matches, why not get a more appropriate gun for those matches?

My 4" S&W Model 686 works very well on Bowling Pins!