Is it typical for snubs to shoot high at 7 and 10 yards, I didn't try it out past that, so don't know if shoots high any further out. Everything I shot through this particular one was high, CCI 158gr LRN, Remington 158gr LRN, Speer 135gr+p Gold Dots, Win 130gr+p PDX1, 158gr standard pressure LSWCHP, and 130gr Win FMJ. The only thing that shoots lower is 110gr standard pressure Hornady Critical Defense.
.38 Snub shooting high
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jfh
Member.
which ".38 snub" is it?
Does it have fixed sights?
If so, how are you using them?
They can shoot high--I'm not doubting you. And, it does make sense that the lighter-weight (110-gr.) round shoots lower.
But, I also suspect that it just may be how you are using the sights that may be part of the problem. Tell us more about how you were testing.
Jim H.
Does it have fixed sights?
If so, how are you using them?
They can shoot high--I'm not doubting you. And, it does make sense that the lighter-weight (110-gr.) round shoots lower.
But, I also suspect that it just may be how you are using the sights that may be part of the problem. Tell us more about how you were testing.
Jim H.
Oldtrader3
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You might try 125 gr JHP +P loads. They usually shoot a little lower.
sidheshooter
Member
It's "typical" for quality fixed sight revolvers to shoot *very* close to POA with the loads you mention (save for some of the super-duper ultralight scandium type guns-those can sometimes hit outrageously low compared to POA; this has been documented in print by Ayoob, to name one gun journalist. As an aside, I also once owned a weigand-ported taurus 605 "carry pack" that actually recoiled downward with full-power .357 loads; as a result, every different load and bullet weight was seemingly in a different zip code with that thing...).
At any rate, I'd be interested in the same info requested by jfh.
For what it's worth, all of my fixed-sight .38s are pretty much dead on; so much so that I can interchange at least the 'smiths (36, 12, 64 and 65-using .38 ammo) in the middle of a qualification-type shoot, so long as I am using the same ammo, without anyone looking at the target being able to tell that more than one gun was used.
At least, so long as I am paying attention to the basics when I shoot it...
At any rate, I'd be interested in the same info requested by jfh.
For what it's worth, all of my fixed-sight .38s are pretty much dead on; so much so that I can interchange at least the 'smiths (36, 12, 64 and 65-using .38 ammo) in the middle of a qualification-type shoot, so long as I am using the same ammo, without anyone looking at the target being able to tell that more than one gun was used.
At least, so long as I am paying attention to the basics when I shoot it...
S&W 637. If I have the top of the front sight even the top of the rear notch, I hit high nearly 6" high with the 158gr loads, and about 4" with the Gold Dots and PDX1. If I adjust my sight alignment to where i can just barely see the top of the front sight, I hit closer to POA, but still a bit high. I didn't know of maybe they are zeroed for 25 yards and the extra 6" or so up close is so it will hit closer to POA at longer distances. I wouldn't think there would be 6" of bullet drop at 25 yards though.
jfh
Member.
So, given your sight picture--are you shooting from a bench, in a rest--with bags under the muzzle and / or under the butt?
Is your hand well-conditioned?
I have several j-frames--and particularly with the lightweights (360, M&P 340, formerly a 442)--the mere act of finishing a trigger stroke can bobble the shot if your hand is not conditioned--and, if shooting unsupported but typically two-handed, using a double-action stroke.
Unless the butt is also padded on the rest, I don't think you can draw any conclusions yet on your 637's inherent POA. Have you shot it a lot? Have you a lot of experience shooting (lightweight) j-frames? If not, and if your hand is not conditioned, then I would shoot it a lot more with one specific ammo (say a 38+P 158-gr.), and concentrate on DAO shooting at 7 yards until you are thoroughly familar with this particular gun.
OTOH, if you are beyond the relative-newcomer stage to j-frame lightweights and a knowledgeable shooter, you might want to give S&W a call and see what they would do for you, and if there is any cost involved.
In the meantime, a good basic drill is to shoot Old Fuff's quad fives--e..g, five yards, five (DAO) shots, a 5" group into a blank piece of (typing, or 8.5x11.0) paper, and (eventually) in under five seconds. That kind of drill will get you acclimated to the kind of SD shooting these pistols excel at and help break any 'marksmanship' habits you may subconsciously bring to your carry-gun shooting.
on edit: I haven't checked my POAs recently because I shoot using a CT laser grip--and am getting transitioned to point shooting out about ten yards now. But, others have complained about the POA being off on their Airweights, and I am not convinced S&W is building them as carefully as they once were--at least if the 442 I had was any example of Airweights.
Jim H.
Is your hand well-conditioned?
I have several j-frames--and particularly with the lightweights (360, M&P 340, formerly a 442)--the mere act of finishing a trigger stroke can bobble the shot if your hand is not conditioned--and, if shooting unsupported but typically two-handed, using a double-action stroke.
Unless the butt is also padded on the rest, I don't think you can draw any conclusions yet on your 637's inherent POA. Have you shot it a lot? Have you a lot of experience shooting (lightweight) j-frames? If not, and if your hand is not conditioned, then I would shoot it a lot more with one specific ammo (say a 38+P 158-gr.), and concentrate on DAO shooting at 7 yards until you are thoroughly familar with this particular gun.
OTOH, if you are beyond the relative-newcomer stage to j-frame lightweights and a knowledgeable shooter, you might want to give S&W a call and see what they would do for you, and if there is any cost involved.
In the meantime, a good basic drill is to shoot Old Fuff's quad fives--e..g, five yards, five (DAO) shots, a 5" group into a blank piece of (typing, or 8.5x11.0) paper, and (eventually) in under five seconds. That kind of drill will get you acclimated to the kind of SD shooting these pistols excel at and help break any 'marksmanship' habits you may subconsciously bring to your carry-gun shooting.
on edit: I haven't checked my POAs recently because I shoot using a CT laser grip--and am getting transitioned to point shooting out about ten yards now. But, others have complained about the POA being off on their Airweights, and I am not convinced S&W is building them as carefully as they once were--at least if the 442 I had was any example of Airweights.
Jim H.
The shooting is both supported and unsupported, in single action to eliminate as much movement from trigger pull as I can, which I am pretty sure there isn't any. I have maybe 500 rounds down range with this particular gun, and it has remained constant. Another shooter who I had try my gun to see if it was just me also had the same problem, to pretty much the same degree.
Do you think maybe S&W sighted the gun to use lighter JHP's since that seems to be what a lot of people are using these day?
Do you think maybe S&W sighted the gun to use lighter JHP's since that seems to be what a lot of people are using these day?
SwampWolf
Member
I've got a like new Colt Cobra (1968 vintage) that shoots shockingly high. At 25 yards, firing single-action from a rest, the bullets won't even find the paper! From 15 yards, it will place 158 grainers @ 12:00 on the black with a center hold. Because of the fixed sights, there's not a whole lot I can do about it unless I want to start filing on the front sight blade. My J-frame Smiths, on the other hand, fire spot on with most bullet weights @ 25 yards.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Are you using a 6 o'clock hold when aiming? If not you should be. A fixes sight S&W .38 Special revolver is sighted in with ammo using a 158gr bullet. Usually a 125gr or 110gr bullet will hit low. It's possible you are allowing the recoil from such a light revolver raise the muzzle more than it should causing the bullet to hit high. It's also possible the revolver wasn't sighted in correctly. (but less likely)
Yup, a little anyway. The target I use for checking POA and POI has multiple 10" bullseye targets on it. I hold just under the center of the bull and hit just outside the top ring. It could be a recoil management issue, although I would think the bullet has left the barrel by the time the muzzle raises any. I will check that out though next time I go to the range.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
You would be surprised what the recoil can do as the bullet is leaving the barrel. That's why 125gr and 110gr bullets shoot lower than the 158gr bullets, less recoil. BUT, if you are always hitting 6" high you can always adjust your point of aim to compensate. It's your only recourse when you shoot with fixed sights other than modifying the height of the front sight.
At 7~10 yards my SP-101 2" snubby will shoot about 2" low with 125gr, and about 2" high with 158gr. 147gr shoots to POA.
A max .357 load will shoot about 4" low with 125gr.
It's bullet speed. The lighter faster round exits the barrel sooner before it has time to rise as much. The heavier, slower bullet will take a little longer clearing the muzzle so the point of impact is higher.
A max .357 load will shoot about 4" low with 125gr.
It's bullet speed. The lighter faster round exits the barrel sooner before it has time to rise as much. The heavier, slower bullet will take a little longer clearing the muzzle so the point of impact is higher.
You should see how different a 10 1/2" Super Blackhawk shoots with lighter vs. heavier bullets!
My 642 is pretty close to dead on with 110-125 grain bullets. My Model 10 is dead on with 158s.
Slower, heavier bullets shoot higher. Faster, lighter ones shoot lower. Internal ballistics make this so.
A .38 snubbie is probably set up for 110-125 grains, because these can be loaded so they perform well in a short barrel. The heavier bullets accelerate more slowly in the barrel, so they lose a lot when shot from a snubbie.
My 642 is pretty close to dead on with 110-125 grain bullets. My Model 10 is dead on with 158s.
Slower, heavier bullets shoot higher. Faster, lighter ones shoot lower. Internal ballistics make this so.
A .38 snubbie is probably set up for 110-125 grains, because these can be loaded so they perform well in a short barrel. The heavier bullets accelerate more slowly in the barrel, so they lose a lot when shot from a snubbie.
I have a S&W Model 49 snubbie, and I've found that the sights can fool me. I'll raise the muzzle so I can see the front sight, but then it's above the groove of the rear sight and hits high. I really have to think about it to get the front sight down level with the groove in the frame, and then it's OK.
GrandmasterB
Member
SwampWolf said:
I had a Detective Special that did the same thing. At 10 yards, it was 6"-8" high. I tried all different loads and they were all high, and I didn't want to put the money into it to add a taller front sight, so I sold it.
But back to the original poster's issue, since the gun is relatively new vintage, I would send it back to S&W and let them make it right.
Y'all are going on about all sorts of things, but the OP already has the answer:
158s shoot high, 110s shoot to POA.
That's how a 637 is set up.
Sure, there are things he can do to practice shooting a snubbie well, but these loads are quite different when you have a light gun (or a long barrel, but that's not the case here), and even shoot to a significantly different POA in a 4" Model 10.
125 grain bullets in a 4" "pencil barrel" Model 10 shoot AT LEAST 6" low at 25 yards, but 158s are right on.
All that is fine, since snubbie-optimized loads tend to be 110s anyway. Get some Cor-Bon DPX 110s and call it a day. They'll shoot where you want them.
This is why Elmer Keith didn't want any sixguns with fixed sights, after all the playing around he did.
Personally, I love the little S&Ws. But they're not target guns, and you have to make different allowances. Just choose the rounds that really shoot best in them.
158s shoot high, 110s shoot to POA.
That's how a 637 is set up.
Sure, there are things he can do to practice shooting a snubbie well, but these loads are quite different when you have a light gun (or a long barrel, but that's not the case here), and even shoot to a significantly different POA in a 4" Model 10.
125 grain bullets in a 4" "pencil barrel" Model 10 shoot AT LEAST 6" low at 25 yards, but 158s are right on.
All that is fine, since snubbie-optimized loads tend to be 110s anyway. Get some Cor-Bon DPX 110s and call it a day. They'll shoot where you want them.
This is why Elmer Keith didn't want any sixguns with fixed sights, after all the playing around he did.
Personally, I love the little S&Ws. But they're not target guns, and you have to make different allowances. Just choose the rounds that really shoot best in them.
jfh
Member.
I think S&W still sets up their 38 Specials for standard 158-gr loads at 15(?) yards, no matter the barrel length. Maybe a marketing decision has been made to tweak that in the lightweights--but then we should know about it. Personally, I suspect looser QC control--and maybe an adjunct issue with ammunition manufacturers no longer keeping their ballistics to existing standards.
Nonetheless, I do not worry about it on my own carry guns. Sight use, marksmanship style, and single-action shooting have little place in shooting these revolvers.
Jim H.
Nonetheless, I do not worry about it on my own carry guns. Sight use, marksmanship style, and single-action shooting have little place in shooting these revolvers.
Jim H.
jfh
Member.
Yes, I have tried it, but not with 'exhaustive' testing to fully confirm it.
When I started my short-barrel reloading project, I did note that the Speer 38+P GDSB 135-gr. load shot to the same nominal poa as the more traditional 158 gr. rounds. That was also true with the high-test BB20As. This was true for a M&P340, 640, 60/3", and a 686/4". But, I did not really do repeated testing; I went on with the 38+P GDSB 'replica reloads' project.
Since then, I have also reached the conclusion that much of the POA issues for the short-barreled guns rests in the shooter's grip and in hand conditioning. In short, it really becomes an issue about how you use the snubbie, not its inherent accuracy issues.
Meanwhile, I think I will call S&W about this--but not today; Fridays during the summer are never a good time to reach them.
Jim H.
When I started my short-barrel reloading project, I did note that the Speer 38+P GDSB 135-gr. load shot to the same nominal poa as the more traditional 158 gr. rounds. That was also true with the high-test BB20As. This was true for a M&P340, 640, 60/3", and a 686/4". But, I did not really do repeated testing; I went on with the 38+P GDSB 'replica reloads' project.
Since then, I have also reached the conclusion that much of the POA issues for the short-barreled guns rests in the shooter's grip and in hand conditioning. In short, it really becomes an issue about how you use the snubbie, not its inherent accuracy issues.
Meanwhile, I think I will call S&W about this--but not today; Fridays during the summer are never a good time to reach them.
Jim H.
BCRider
Member
You said lower but not by how much. If it's still shooting high even with that load then I think you have an issue.
In looking up the specs I also see that it's listed as .38Spl +P. Is that what is stamped on the barrel? If so I would test again using a couple of +P types of ammo and see what the difference is. The +P will exit the barrel sooner due to the higher velocity and with something as short as a snubbie this may make all the difference in the world.
I know that with my own range shooting I play Revolver Roulette with my model 19. 5 rounds of .38Spl and one of .357Mag. It's great for flinch avoidance training and fun to boot. But doing this I find that the Mag round consistently hits 3 to 4 inches low at around 15 yards due to the greater velocity. So in your case switching to the specified +P load may prove to be the solution.
jfh
Member.
Just got off the phone with S&W
about POA for 38 Special revolvers:
CS--the initial contact ('option 7 at the menu) was really no help, but I found out that the accuracy standards are
1. for <=3" barrels--3" or less at 10 yards, and
2. for > 3" barrels--4" or less at 25 yards.
This rep didn't know about POA / setup issues. So, I requested a transfer to Engineering or the PC. I spoke with Larry. He told me
All 38 Special (not 38/357) revolvers are set up to POA with the typical 158-gr. 38 Special standard load--but depending on barrel length, the POA distance is different.
1. For the 2" barrels, (<=3") the POA distance is (nominally) 12 yards;
2. For the longer barrels, the distance is 25 yards.
Unfortunately, I was not quick-witted enough to remember to ask him about POA for the lighter weight bullets--e.g., were 110-125 gr. ballistics/POA also taken into account for POA specifications. What we know about ballistics/recoil/etc. does suggest a bit of serendipity here--that is, the lower-weight bullets shoot lower--so, from a sales viewpoint to a typical buyer, more buyers (not gunnies) will not complain.
My conclusion, then, is that the OP's experience with his 637 is not meeting the standard if it is (reliably) shooting 6" high with standard ammunition. Fixing it is a bit problematic, it looks like--in keeping with the typical airweight basic models, the front sight is machined in to the barrel / barrel shroud, so it cannot readily be replaced with a higher one.
If you don't want to change your shooting style, 167, I suggest a call to S&W to see if they want to fix it for you.
Jim H.
about POA for 38 Special revolvers:
CS--the initial contact ('option 7 at the menu) was really no help, but I found out that the accuracy standards are
1. for <=3" barrels--3" or less at 10 yards, and
2. for > 3" barrels--4" or less at 25 yards.
This rep didn't know about POA / setup issues. So, I requested a transfer to Engineering or the PC. I spoke with Larry. He told me
All 38 Special (not 38/357) revolvers are set up to POA with the typical 158-gr. 38 Special standard load--but depending on barrel length, the POA distance is different.
1. For the 2" barrels, (<=3") the POA distance is (nominally) 12 yards;
2. For the longer barrels, the distance is 25 yards.
Unfortunately, I was not quick-witted enough to remember to ask him about POA for the lighter weight bullets--e.g., were 110-125 gr. ballistics/POA also taken into account for POA specifications. What we know about ballistics/recoil/etc. does suggest a bit of serendipity here--that is, the lower-weight bullets shoot lower--so, from a sales viewpoint to a typical buyer, more buyers (not gunnies) will not complain.
My conclusion, then, is that the OP's experience with his 637 is not meeting the standard if it is (reliably) shooting 6" high with standard ammunition. Fixing it is a bit problematic, it looks like--in keeping with the typical airweight basic models, the front sight is machined in to the barrel / barrel shroud, so it cannot readily be replaced with a higher one.
If you don't want to change your shooting style, 167, I suggest a call to S&W to see if they want to fix it for you.
Jim H.
Last edited:
Interesting.
There's also the question of whether it shoots high from a Ramsom Rest, vs. from a particular shooter's hand.
The SBH mentioned above can shoot MUCH higher from my hand, vs. when it's held fast against a rest for sighting in.
Obviously, internal ballistics aren't going to bend the barrel or the stiff frame of an Airweight. The difference comes from how the gun behaves under recoil -- and that will vary with the shooter.
That is something else to try. Grab it HARD and shoot it. See where it hits. I've changed vertical POI pretty dramatically by varying my grip, though that's much easier to do with a magnum single action and a plowhandle grip.
There's also the question of whether it shoots high from a Ramsom Rest, vs. from a particular shooter's hand.
The SBH mentioned above can shoot MUCH higher from my hand, vs. when it's held fast against a rest for sighting in.
Obviously, internal ballistics aren't going to bend the barrel or the stiff frame of an Airweight. The difference comes from how the gun behaves under recoil -- and that will vary with the shooter.
That is something else to try. Grab it HARD and shoot it. See where it hits. I've changed vertical POI pretty dramatically by varying my grip, though that's much easier to do with a magnum single action and a plowhandle grip.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Standing Wolf said:
Adjustments to the front sight move the bullet in the opposite direction! If you file the front sight (make it lower), the gun will shoot even higher.
To lower the point of impact, you must raise the front sight -- which can only be done by either replacing it completely, or adding metal.
Stop!!
Adjustments to the front sight move the bullet in the opposite direction! If you file the front sight (make it lower), the gun will shoot even higher.
To lower the point of impact, you must raise the front sight -- which can only be done by either replacing it completely, or adding metal.
Ben Shepherd
Member
Vern-
NICE CATCH. He's right folks!! Front sight adjustments are oppisite what you need the bullet to do.
NICE CATCH. He's right folks!! Front sight adjustments are oppisite what you need the bullet to do.
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