WestKentucky
Member
With modern metallurgy, no. It may be to keep the gun from wearing YOU out after a box or two.
38 special and power
- Thread starter Bezoar
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I'm not quite sure where all of these opinions are coming from regarding BB ammo. They are not using under sized bullets, or some magical soft bullets either. If you want to use the same bullets that BB uses in the majority of their pistol ammo then go here
http://rimrockbullets.net/index.php
Buffalo Bore is is not loading their ammo to very brink of safe pressures either. To think that a modern day ammo company would do that and leave themselves open to numerous lawsuits and lose they're livelyhood is ridiculous. What Buffalo Bore is doing is using Non-Canister grade powders that is not available to any of us. Why are the other companies not using it too...?? Who knows thats anyones guess, however Hornady is using a special blend of powder in their .38SPL 110 +P Critical Defense ammo, not sure about the other CD though. It is the only .38 SPL 110gr +P ammo made by a major company that even comes close to the old .38 SPL "Treasury Load".
http://rimrockbullets.net/index.php
Buffalo Bore is is not loading their ammo to very brink of safe pressures either. To think that a modern day ammo company would do that and leave themselves open to numerous lawsuits and lose they're livelyhood is ridiculous. What Buffalo Bore is doing is using Non-Canister grade powders that is not available to any of us. Why are the other companies not using it too...?? Who knows thats anyones guess, however Hornady is using a special blend of powder in their .38SPL 110 +P Critical Defense ammo, not sure about the other CD though. It is the only .38 SPL 110gr +P ammo made by a major company that even comes close to the old .38 SPL "Treasury Load".
A very interesting article this week in Shotgun News.
The writer points out that the .357 Mag round nose results in over-penetration. The .357 Mag hollow points UNDER-penetrate because they open so aggressively. His opinion was that .38 Special was the ideal round for proper penetration, and for hollow-point expansion.
I welcomed this analysis, because I surely like shooting .38 Specials WAY more than shooting .357 Magnums!
The writer points out that the .357 Mag round nose results in over-penetration. The .357 Mag hollow points UNDER-penetrate because they open so aggressively. His opinion was that .38 Special was the ideal round for proper penetration, and for hollow-point expansion.
I welcomed this analysis, because I surely like shooting .38 Specials WAY more than shooting .357 Magnums!
This thread is about .38 SPC, but I will throw this in. My Bersa .380 shooting a +P from a company that advertises 1200 fps from this round actually got 1200 to 1204 fps from my 3.5" barrel.
I didn't see any damage to the gun, and the cases and primers were fine. So a 90 grain XTP .380 can go 1200 FPS from a 3.5" barrel. This totally ups the level of the .380. If you are shooting Hornady, Winchester, or Federal you are hard pressed to get 980 fps from a .380.
I honestly believe the big companies are not loading to a cartridges capabilities.
I gladly carry my .380, and don't feel under powered at all. I find it weird that the big companies keep the .380 under 1000 fps when it is clear that you can get 1200 fps or at least 1100 without damage to the guns. Well I don't know if a polymer .380 would handle those pressures or speeds. That is why I opted to my tote a non-polymer .380.
I didn't see any damage to the gun, and the cases and primers were fine. So a 90 grain XTP .380 can go 1200 FPS from a 3.5" barrel. This totally ups the level of the .380. If you are shooting Hornady, Winchester, or Federal you are hard pressed to get 980 fps from a .380.
I honestly believe the big companies are not loading to a cartridges capabilities.
I gladly carry my .380, and don't feel under powered at all. I find it weird that the big companies keep the .380 under 1000 fps when it is clear that you can get 1200 fps or at least 1100 without damage to the guns. Well I don't know if a polymer .380 would handle those pressures or speeds. That is why I opted to my tote a non-polymer .380.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Back in the 50's and 60's, the standard bullet in .357 was the 158 grain semi-wadcutter which was quite effective. When I went to Viet Nam on my first tour, I took my Colt M357 with handloads -- 148 grain hollow based wadcutters loaded backwards over all the Unique I dared. That had the desired terminal effect, but leaded ferociously.
The modern trend is to the 125 grain loaded pretty hot -- and that has an excellent track record on the street.
Given the choice, I'll go with the .357 -- however, for a snubbie, the .357, as one author said, "turns the recoil of the .357 from merely unpleasant to downright painful." So in snubbies, I choose the .38 Special.
BCRider
Member
JimK posted this and it seems to be the general feeling from reading the rest of the posts.
But let's stop and consider that the SAMMI limit is the PEAK pressure. And for most powders the peak is reached within a short time and then as the bullet moves ahead the pressure drops away rapidly due to the increase in volume behind the bullet. As the pressure drops obviously so does the push against the base of the bullet.
But what if that same peak pressure can be maintained for a longer time so that as the bullet moves out of the casing and down the bore the first short way the pressure is held to the high value for a longer time? By doing so even as the pressure drops away it will still show a higher pressure at any given distance along the bore than the other typical style of load.
So could it be that BB is using some sort of mixture of fast and slow powders that allows for a fast sharp burn of one powder followed by a slower build of a second or third powder in the mixture? If so then we would see a faster bullet with a sharper and louder report than most regular loads all while not exceeding the SAMMI peak pressure limits.
I only know enough to pose the idea. I have no idea if this is what BB does. But a manufacturer of premium ammo of this sort could certainly have the funds to purchase the pressure measuring equipment needed to develop this sort of powder charge.
But let's stop and consider that the SAMMI limit is the PEAK pressure. And for most powders the peak is reached within a short time and then as the bullet moves ahead the pressure drops away rapidly due to the increase in volume behind the bullet. As the pressure drops obviously so does the push against the base of the bullet.
But what if that same peak pressure can be maintained for a longer time so that as the bullet moves out of the casing and down the bore the first short way the pressure is held to the high value for a longer time? By doing so even as the pressure drops away it will still show a higher pressure at any given distance along the bore than the other typical style of load.
So could it be that BB is using some sort of mixture of fast and slow powders that allows for a fast sharp burn of one powder followed by a slower build of a second or third powder in the mixture? If so then we would see a faster bullet with a sharper and louder report than most regular loads all while not exceeding the SAMMI peak pressure limits.
I only know enough to pose the idea. I have no idea if this is what BB does. But a manufacturer of premium ammo of this sort could certainly have the funds to purchase the pressure measuring equipment needed to develop this sort of powder charge.
USSR
Member
Duplex loads go back a long, long way, and in many instances the results were catastrophic, so it's highly unlikely that BB is doing this. What they no doubt are doing is using a caseful of a slow burning powder and taking the pressure right up to the SAAMI limit.
Don
Vern Humphrey
Member
That's correct. Velocity is not determined by the peak pressure, but by the area under the curve.
Hodgdon's Li'l Gun is a beautiful example. It has a low, but prolonged peak, and in cartridges where it is suitable develops high velocity at low pressures. For example, in the .22 Hornet, I can drive a 35 grain bullet over 3,000 fps with only around 30K psi -- and the SAAMI MAP for the Horned is 40k psi.
One proof of this is to actually buy ( I know a sin)Some of their 158 LSWCHP +P 38 specials/ Shoot them in a snubby of your choice.
Positively brutal. I would say they are 357 Mags!
IMHO it does you no good anyway. Hard to get off a second shot and I doubt the round will penetrate or do more damage than a "milder" 38 +P
True story. Absolutely true story.
I swapped out the grips on my 642 after taking those puppies to the range (Pachmayr compact grips). Tradeoff is the grip peeks a little in a pocket sometimes.
Not a chance. There are .357 magnum snubbies so light as to be ridiculously painful for many shooters even with light/moderate magnum loads let alone the real thumpers.
I'm not man enough to try, but if you are, pick up a 340PD or similar and try to put one box of, say, Hornady 125gr XTP through it in one session with no glove.
Panzerschwein
member
In all the tests I've seen, the 125 grain SJHP .357 magnum loads penetrate no less than many modern JHP rounds in all the main service calibers. They tend to penetrate to between 12-14", not deep penetration but they meet the minimum and then some and boy do they make a mess along the way.
They're what I use in my 4" GP100. I trust my life to them.
They're what I use in my 4" GP100. I trust my life to them.
BCRider
Member
Along this line of the powder being the enabler of fast bullets with low pressure I was just reviewing the Hodgdon reloading center for some load info. I noticed a powder I didn't recall seeing in the past called Winchester Autocomp. I was quite surprised at the muzzle velocities from this powder and the relatively low peak pressure that it generated to achieve these results. Could this be an option for a BB like performance for the home re-loader? It may not prove so for all cartridges but the sampling I've looked at so far seems to suggest it as a possible good option.
For shorter barrels like snub nose revolvers and pocket semis much would depend on the burn rate and pressure build though. If it doesn't get things moving too early it could result in a decrease in performance.
Still, it would be worth the cost of a pound to try it out.
For shorter barrels like snub nose revolvers and pocket semis much would depend on the burn rate and pressure build though. If it doesn't get things moving too early it could result in a decrease in performance.
Still, it would be worth the cost of a pound to try it out.
Vern Humphrey
Member
While there are exceptions, the general rule is the powder that gives the greatest velocity on longer barrels usually gives the greatest velocity in shorter barrels.
I tend to like .38+p and low end .357 loads the best. I feel standard .38 loads are a bit weak and full house .357's have too darn much muzzleblast & flash. Just like Goldilocks & her porridge, I find the +p loadings to be "just right"mc or my needs and use.
I've got some loading data for the old .38/44 loads stashed I hope to try one day. I don't worry about pressures in my guns as they're chambered for .357. I was a latecomer to .38/.357 but since discovering them I've become a big fan.
I've got some loading data for the old .38/44 loads stashed I hope to try one day. I don't worry about pressures in my guns as they're chambered for .357. I was a latecomer to .38/.357 but since discovering them I've become a big fan.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
RC nailed it. The major manufacturers are not loading to maximum pressures. Buffalo Bore is. One reason why it costs so much, meticulous assembly.
45_auto
Member
Vern Humphrey said:
Vern nailed it. Buffalo Bore loads to the same maximum pressures as every other manufacturer, they just use custom powders to maintain that maximum pressure for a longer period.
I'm not convinced other, or many other, manufacturers load to the same max pressure, even. There is just such a huge difference it's incredible what constitutes +P from the others.
USSR
Member
+1. They don't for rifle cartridges (typically 60k psi cartridges are loaded to 55k psi), so I don't see why they wouldn't do the same for handgun cartridges.
Don
gamestalker
member
I tend to agree with what 1911 said, in that, powders with slower burn rates, velocities can be matched and even exceeded. Peak pressure is by no means the sole element of increased velocity. In other words, one does not have to load to the ragged edge of pressure limitations, in order to achieve the velocity of higher pressure loads.
BTW, I do not buy custom loaded, or factory ammunition, and despite my high velocity performance goals, I have yet to feel short changed by the results I safely attain.
GS
BTW, I do not buy custom loaded, or factory ammunition, and despite my high velocity performance goals, I have yet to feel short changed by the results I safely attain.
GS
WestKentucky
Member
Gamestalker is right...and I'm with him in the hand loading arena.
The hand loading arena though makes me question how companies like Buffalo Bore are making a profit. With hand loading growing in popularity it's hard to imagine that there are tons of folks who don't either roll their own or have their buddy do it for them at a fraction of the cost. Even if a man has to buy dies, bullets, and powder specifically for a load he is looking at 40 bucks in dies, 20 bucks in powder, and 30 bucks in super-bullets. 90 bucks...plus a 12 pack to use his buddies bench for a couple hours so call it a hundred bucks for the first hundred rounds...with buffalo bore prices your already even because you still have dies to sell used for 25 bucks, and powder to go with them for 10. If a person were to REALLY go cheap with the Lee classic loader whackamole special then they are already ahead. I guess this is off topic because it looks at economics rather than load characteristics but still...money wasted is ammo given away.
The hand loading arena though makes me question how companies like Buffalo Bore are making a profit. With hand loading growing in popularity it's hard to imagine that there are tons of folks who don't either roll their own or have their buddy do it for them at a fraction of the cost. Even if a man has to buy dies, bullets, and powder specifically for a load he is looking at 40 bucks in dies, 20 bucks in powder, and 30 bucks in super-bullets. 90 bucks...plus a 12 pack to use his buddies bench for a couple hours so call it a hundred bucks for the first hundred rounds...with buffalo bore prices your already even because you still have dies to sell used for 25 bucks, and powder to go with them for 10. If a person were to REALLY go cheap with the Lee classic loader whackamole special then they are already ahead. I guess this is off topic because it looks at economics rather than load characteristics but still...money wasted is ammo given away.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You don't think major manufacturers use non-cannister powders??? As was stated, Buffalo Bore runs at maximum where everybody else runs well under.
Anybody notice that factory .44Mag ammo runs at least 100-200fps slower than comparable handloads? That's because they're loaded well under maximum pressures. If a 250gr at 1200fps in the .44Spl is a 26,000psi load, then what would you think about the same out of a .44Mag case? It has to be well under 30,000psi.
Panzerschwein
member
In the tests I've seen of either the Federal 357B or the Remington 125 grain SJHP load, they both did very well in gel and 4 layers of IWB protocol denim.
Both these loads produce energies just below 600 ft lbs. Expansion is typicalyl total and explosive, with some fragmentation. While this is generally not desirable in most defensive handgun rounds, these hot 125 grain magnums produce enough energy to still drive deep enough, meeting or exceeding the 12" minimum penetration requirement of the FBI et al, so the moderate fragmentation effect can in this case actually be considered useful. It is at least a componenet to the effect of this round, almost 600 ft lbs of energy in a wound track 12-14" long is quite nasty.
However, as far as .38 special goes, we have rounds today like the Speer Gold Dot that perform quite well without all the drama of a full-house magnum, though wounding potential is naturally lessened. One great load is the Speer Gold Dot .38 special +P 135 grain Short Barrel load. Not only does it give good performance from snub nose barrel length equiped revolver, but it gives even better results from a 4" service revolver's barrel. The NYPD at one time, or even still does, issue this load not only to their officers for their snub nose backup/plainscloths/off duty revolvers, but the same load is issued to the few on-duty officers who carry 4" service revolvers instead of the current Glock 19.
It's a great load to be sure!
Both these loads produce energies just below 600 ft lbs. Expansion is typicalyl total and explosive, with some fragmentation. While this is generally not desirable in most defensive handgun rounds, these hot 125 grain magnums produce enough energy to still drive deep enough, meeting or exceeding the 12" minimum penetration requirement of the FBI et al, so the moderate fragmentation effect can in this case actually be considered useful. It is at least a componenet to the effect of this round, almost 600 ft lbs of energy in a wound track 12-14" long is quite nasty.
However, as far as .38 special goes, we have rounds today like the Speer Gold Dot that perform quite well without all the drama of a full-house magnum, though wounding potential is naturally lessened. One great load is the Speer Gold Dot .38 special +P 135 grain Short Barrel load. Not only does it give good performance from snub nose barrel length equiped revolver, but it gives even better results from a 4" service revolver's barrel. The NYPD at one time, or even still does, issue this load not only to their officers for their snub nose backup/plainscloths/off duty revolvers, but the same load is issued to the few on-duty officers who carry 4" service revolvers instead of the current Glock 19.
It's a great load to be sure!
BCRider
Member
Speaking of special powders? I just wish we could buy the powder that Winchester uses in their Winclean ammo. I'd never have to clean my brass ever again....
Johnny_B_Goode
member
Some calibers are nanny loads. Even Buffalo Bore and Double Tap do not go past regular factory velocity 380 ammo. Their so called 380+P loads are around 100 fps faster than Walmart ammo. I get really good results from HPR and Precision One ammo without paying a premium for the 380. HPR is really gentle on a 380. HPR is hot enough to function well but it is only hot enough to drive a 100gr FMJ 19 inches from a 2.5" barrel.
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I have to go with the 38Special loads, since I do not shoot +P's in my .38's
I do shoot Sabers in my Vaquero and they are near perfect for most uses.
I think the best load for your .38 is the Horniday XTP factory load. Especally in the Model 36 since it recoils so light.
NExt to that, a full weight 158gr factory loaded .38 Special is perfect in any .38.Heavy slug good velocity and penetration. It stays put in the carcass and5 will take down most any 2 legged foe. I hope I never have to do that!
The 158 grainer is what the gun is designed around and most Fixed sights are even set to it.Max weight, Powder burn, and penetration from your .38 Special.
The light, fast, 125 grain high preformance .38 Special ammo needs get aa special Horray, It's designed and engineered to get the most out of short barrels and in a 4" it is about as hot as it gets!
I load the 125 gr High preformance in my guns, hoping to get the most I can from the gun without harming my Pets.
In a small revolver, the .357 is way too much for an average person to shoot well. plinking or Target shooting I always shoot the 158 grainers though. I just like the kick! EVEN my Derringer!
I do shoot Sabers in my Vaquero and they are near perfect for most uses.
I think the best load for your .38 is the Horniday XTP factory load. Especally in the Model 36 since it recoils so light.
NExt to that, a full weight 158gr factory loaded .38 Special is perfect in any .38.Heavy slug good velocity and penetration. It stays put in the carcass and5 will take down most any 2 legged foe. I hope I never have to do that!
The 158 grainer is what the gun is designed around and most Fixed sights are even set to it.Max weight, Powder burn, and penetration from your .38 Special.
The light, fast, 125 grain high preformance .38 Special ammo needs get aa special Horray, It's designed and engineered to get the most out of short barrels and in a 4" it is about as hot as it gets!
I load the 125 gr High preformance in my guns, hoping to get the most I can from the gun without harming my Pets.
In a small revolver, the .357 is way too much for an average person to shoot well. plinking or Target shooting I always shoot the 158 grainers though. I just like the kick! EVEN my Derringer!
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