38 special as magnum loads

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snazz93

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Hi all, I've gotten so much advice here already, from reloading to gun reviews. I love this forum. Im new to reloading. Ive loaded quite a few 357 mags, very recently got into ,44 mag, .40 s&w, and 9mm. My neighbor cought wind and asked if I'd reload some .357 for him and I said sure. 75% of his brass is 38 special. He swears the guy that reloaded it for him in 1999 reloaded it to magnum specs. The guy did write his specs on the box. "158 lead, 13.2 2400. That seems real hot for a 38 special to me. I'm just gunna reload them back to 38. However I'm curious, can a 38 case safely actually be loaded to mag specs assuming its only being fired from a 357 magnum?
 
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He's actually a good friend, ironically I happened to buy a house next to him last year. Still, I don't know how much I believe all this 38 mag stuff. Everything I've learned so far leads me to think you would have to change the cannelure position to adjust for the press length, and I just can't see anybody going through all that for a 357 load. Its all so cheap haha
 
Current Alliant data for 38+p gives a 9gr charge with a 146gr jacketed bullet. So the data you got from your friend is about a 50% increase in the charge under a slightly heavier bullet. Don't even bother trying to go anywhere near that. Just load his 38 brass with regular 38 loads and tell him if he wants 357 to give you some 357 brass next time.
 
I wouldn't get anywhere near that... I call that Mystery Meat data.

If you load those .38 cases, load them using .38SPC data, if you load those .357's, use published .357 data. Please. I'm not even a really big fan of +P handloads, and I would NEVER load them for someone else.
 
Looking at Alliant .357 mag data, and having converted .38spcl loads to .357mag loads, and vice verse for decades by scaling up 10%, I can appreciate how the other reloader may have arrived at that load. Lots of load data exists for .357mag and 2400 with 158grn lead bullets, in excess of 15grn of 2400. Scale that back (divide by 1.1) to .38spcl cases and you’re in excess of the load listed on your friend’s box. As with anything, work up your load, but I would not expect you’d see pressure signs. This would NOT be suitable for use in a .38spcl only revolver, naturally, but in a .357mag revolver, I could see myself using the same load or load strategy to run mag pressure loads in special brass. I usually run the opposite, however, as I prefer to run full length mag brass and avoid chamber ringing. So I run .38spcl plinking loads scaled for .357mag cases. Same principle, just operating in reverse.
 
I would say no.
If he wants .357 loads buy or get some .357 brass.
Show him how to reload it and help him do it.
Way to much risk IMO if anything was to go wrong.
What if he buys a lightweight .38 and just gets the ammo mixed up and shoots some of the .38s (with .357 like pressures) in it?
Or gives it to a friend of his to shoot.

imagine
"So you were well aware that the loads you created were well above any published data and created pressure far beyond what is the specification for .38 special?"
"So knowing the loads were well above any published data how can you claim you are not responsible for your friends loss of (finger, eye etc)"

People in the jury box nod their heads in agreement.........
 
This whole thread is just scary. A new reloader is asking a bunch of strangers if it is ok to overload ammo for his neighbor.
Don't shoot other people's reloads.
Don't reload for other people.
Don't overload.

Yes, I know Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton and Phil Sharpe overloaded .38 Special, but they did not learn how to do it on the internet.
 
Good friend or not if he gets hurt you will be sued. His lawyer will tell him, you're not using your friend, you're sewing his insurance company.

It's never a good idea to load .357 Magnum pressures in a .38 Special case and should NEVER be done for someone else. If that round finds its way into a .38 Special revolver and someone gets hurt you are legally and criminally liable.

Please hunt around the NET and you will see you should never load for someone else. Invite him over and show him how to do it but let him do it.
 
We get this question with regularity. Can I load my 38 special brass to 357 magnum loads?
It is not good reloading practice, and can get you in trouble. Yes, the only difference is the case length. And if you seat the bullet to the same OAL the loads will be the same. But the bullet will not have the same contact with the case, creating lower neck tension with the 38 spl brass. From a physics standpoint this is not a problem, as reduced neck tension will result in lower pressure in the case. And most likely the previous reloader seated the bullets to the proper length for 38 spl loads, which would result in over-pressure loads in his prized 357 magnum.

The problem comes when someone attempts to use this ammo in a 38 special gun. The case is marked 38 spl, but the ammo is too long. The shooter tries to insert the ammo into the cylinder and it is too long. But it says it should fit. The shoot has some choices.
1. Realize that something is wrong and stop. Few will take that choice. At the least you have an irritated shooter.
2. Try to push the bullet into the case so the ammo fits. With the reduced neck tension this usually isn't that hard to do. Now there is a 357 mag load in a 38 spl, and with the bullet now seated too deep it is over-pressure for a 357 mag load. A recipe for disaster. The shooter has a gun that is either destroyed or damaged with a stretched top strap.
3. Try to force the cylinder closed with ammo too long. This can render the gun unable to function, and often will bend the crane of the revolver, resulting in a trip to the gunsmith. Another upset shooter.

Once the ammo leaves your hands you have no control over how it is used. And you are responsible for the damage. A situation you do not want to be in.My recommendation is to kindly tell your friend that you are not willing to take the risk. If he is a good friend he will understand. If he doesn't, your friendship will suffer, but that is better than the risk you take that could result in damages to him or his gun.

Perhaps an analogy of you as the owner of Acme Explosives and he as Wile E. Coyote might work.
 
You and your friend need to realize that there are reasons certain weapons are of a certain caliber. If you want a .380 to shoot like a 9mm get a 9mm. The firearms are rated to handle a certain amount of pressure with some leeway but not much. You start shooting magnum loads out a a .38 caliber handgun and you are asking for catastrophic failure of that weapon, mechanically and structurally. Yes it may have survived a few shots as it was made to specific safety standards Incase of an accidental overload, but to continue to do this deliberately will eventually lead to failure, you just don’t know when. If he is a true friend than have the courage to say no and stand up to him. Better to have a pissed off friend than a dead one. If that gun fails and he happened to have his son or daughter with him at that time you are responsible for their injury or death as well.
 
I do not wish to offend, but it was a terrible idea the first time he did it. It will be a bad idea this time too. Just because it is physically possible to do it doesn't mean it should be done.

I would invite him over for a reloading session. If he can't be bothered for it, factory ammunition will shoot just fine for him.

I would rather go in on a large order of components with my reloading nieghbor, than open his beers for him because I instantaneously removed his fingers and his pistol from his possession, with my handloads.;)


AND... implore him to stop with the dangerous practice! How expensive is magnum brass? ...compared to reattaching no longer useful phalanges.
 
Make it easy on yourself and have him read this thread.

There are others threads on this same question too. If there were only five for white tail hunting, my response would have been slightly different.
 
Beleive me, I'm not offended by any of this. I'm going to just reload some mag shells I have for him. Ill keep the 38s for myself as I have both a 357 and 38 special.
 
I was loading 44 mag and in the process of setting up my volumetric measure bumped the scale to a 2 gr overcharge. This resulted in a blown up Ruger Blackhawk.
This was a plinking load with fast powder, but it would have been even worse if I had tried for book max. Because of this I now use redundancy and will not reload for other people. You can use my equipment with me overlooking but I will not do it.
 
snazz93 said:
Beleive me, I'm not offended by any of this. I'm going to just reload some mag shells I have for him. Ill keep the 38s for myself as I have both a 357 and 38 special.
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That is good, but I would take Dudedog's advice in post #8 and invite him to let you teach him while he reloads. Good for him and gooder for you. ;)

I gave someone some reloads once when I was still green, knowing that I was below max. But later I had the uneasy feeling of what if. Never again.
 
I also am heavily considering the advice of having him do the reloading! I load my mags almost the exact same as stated above, but I use 13.8 grains of 2400, obviously in mag cases. Probably overkill but I weigh each round afterwards. I only load 50 at a time, so its not a huge killer for me, and I have full confidance of my powder load then. Makes me feel a lot better in the end
 
Lots of reloaders in the world and not nearly as many handloaders.

35,000psi loads in .38 special brass are not the same thing as .357 mag loads.

Yes, there is a risk of cross pollination where an over pressure round destroys an under-designed revolver.

Yes, there is extreme liability assumed by reloading for someone else. It’s a far better idea to either convert him to .357mag brass, or offer to let him use your gear to load his own. It’d be wise to explain to him the implications of his load - it’s an off-map .38spcl+p+ load, not just a “hot 38,” it’s a 357mag pressure with stunted growth. It’s effectively a wildcat.
 
Sounds like the "Skeeter Skelton" load, which was 13.5 gr of the (OLD) 2400 under a Lyman 358156 in .38 Special cases. This cast bullet has two crimp grooves allowing it to be seated out further. He loaded it that way due to the scarcity of .357 cases at that point in history.

I've done it. It works quite well. But .357 cases are readily available so it's a pointless risk. To me it's a last-resort, stop-gap measure. Plus it's specific to that bullet. Plus 2400 has changed over the years. What you buy today is not what he used 60 years or so ago. You really need to go slow and work your way up. I'd never give any of these to somebody else. But if you know what you're doing and using them in an appropriate revolver, hey, it's up to you if you want to take the risk. You also don't want one of these finding its way into a .38 Special gun.

"Below is a table of my favorite .357 loads, separated into three categories. The first two sections, light loads and medium loads, can be put up in either .38 Special or .357 cases. I generally load these in .38 Special cases so they can be readily identified and also because .38 brass is cheaper. The third section, heavy loads, should be assembled in sound, clean .357 cases. While not each is a maximum load, they perform better than any other combinations of the same bullet and powder that I have tried. Bullets use are .357-inch diameter. Velocities are estimated to be those obtained in a 8 3/8-inch barreled revolver."

http://www.darkcanyon.net/MyFriend_The357.htm

Save this stuff for when you have more experience and you've developed a healthy respect for the pressures involved.
 
snazz93 said:
I'm going to just reload some mag shells I have for him. .
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That is still a risky business. A bad load in Magnum brass is still a bad load. A blown up gun is a fast way to lose a friend and maybe meet a lawyer.
The only gun I know to have been demolished at my club was a .357 with loaned ammo.
 
Probably overkill but I weigh each round afterwards
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Just for fun, weigh a sample of your bullets. OK whats the spread on the weight of the bullets? say maybe 1gr, .5gr .3gr??
Weigh some empty brass, whats the spread on the weight of the cases? If it is the same Brand/lot of brass maybe not much spread, but some.
Mixed brass will be much more. ( will go out to my shed and weigh some in a bit and post my numbers)
Lets say 1gr on the brass (probably more but for my example this will work)

OK so you have 1gr on the bullets and 1gr on the brass. Your charge could be 2gr heavy and it might not show up on the loaded rounds.
Others may disagree but I don't think weighing loaded pistol ammo is going to help you find a over or under charge. In this case since your charge is 13.8gr you would most likely be able to spot a round with no powder.
If you were using a lighter charge say like 4gr of HP38 for example in you probably wouldn't even be able to tell if there was any powder in the case unless your bullets and cases were close to the same weight.
And of course the only way to tell would be to weigh a sample of each. A larger sample is better but I would say probably 10 of each will give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Also for fun please let us know the weights of your 10 samples.

I also am heavily considering the advice of having him do the reloading!
Click to expand...
Good idea! Loan him a reloading manual to read.
Have him read and re-read the part about working up to MAX listed charges.
Help him and watch him, I would be temped to spot check what he is doing as well.
I would make it a point no loads outside of listed charges on your equipment.




EDIT:
When I said slight above that was a poor choice of words, the "slight" 2gr overcharge could very well be enough to cause serious problems. Removed slight.
 
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Just for fun I weighed some, raining outside and I grabbed .38 special cases instead of .357 cases (oopppps) and two different bullets.
Small sample size n=10 so take avg, ES and SD with a grain of salt
Weights in grains (gr)

Major Brand Coated 158gr .357 SWC (.358 dia)
1 159.1
2 157.9
3 158.1
4 158.1
5 157.6
6 156.7
7 157.7
8 158.4
9 158.2
10 157.7

Average 157.95
ES 2.4
SD 0.618690373


RMR Plated 158 .357 HP
1 157.7
2 157.5
3 157.7
4 157.7
5 157.4
6 157.9
7 157.4
8 157.7
9 157.6
10 157.9

Average 157.65
ES 0.5
SD 0.177951304
(better numbers here but still .5 gr ES on these bullets)

Brass Win .38 Special (not decapped, tumbled dry media, 99.9% sure mixed lots, same color fired primers but may be different brands)
1 68.5
2 68.8
3 66.5
4 67.5
5 68.1
6 69.2
7 68.2
8 66.6
9 67.5
10 68

Average 67.89
ES 2.7
SD 0.87996212

Brass .38 Special mixed (decapped, wet tumbled)
1 66.6
2 63.7
3 64.1
4 65
5 64.8
6 63.8
7 62.8 (R-P)
8 70.6 (GFL)
9 69.5
10 63.2

Average 65.41
ES 7.8
SD 2.678079743

So stack the maxes together, bullet 2.4, brass (mixed) 7.8 total of 10.2gr, with same brand brass bullets 2.4 brass 2.7 total of 5.1gr.
With the plated bullets and the same brand (but mixed lot brass) total of 3.2gr

Same lot brass might be better, other bullets might be better, I would have weighed some factory .357 ammo to get the numbers from it but I don't have any.
 
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