38 special hot loads with W231/HP38?

[NoirFan]

Hi all, as I'm just starting out, the only components I have on my bench are Rainier 158 plated bullets and HP38 powder. I got to wondering, just how hot of a 38 load can you safely make from this combination?

My Lyman 50th says 4.1gr is the max load for 158gr lead 38 special (or something like that, it's not in front of me right now), but from reading around online I'm seeing a different story. People on various forums have posted about charges ranging from 4.6 to 5.1gr , with velocity claims of 950-1000 FPS. Now obviously online claims have to be taken with a grain of salt, which is why I'm asking here if anyone has a good hot 38 recipe with these powders.

I'm currently content with loading 4gr HP38 which shoots well out of my 4" Security Six and 2" Chief's Special, so this is just curiosity more than anything else.

Thanks

 

[Hokie_PhD]

I'm still fairly new to reloading so please take what I'm posting here as someone just passing along what they've read. Not as suggestions for what you should do. So proceed at your own risk....

My understanding is that all guns have a different ability to handle pressure. So the advice I've usually seen is to slowly work up your loads and watch for sign of pressure being too high. In your case the max by Lyman may be lower than the max of your gun. In rare cases in theory it could be lower but the major publishers and powder makers usually error on the side of caution.

I suspect that the loads you see are loads that people have tested for their guns.

So only you can decide how high to go and what risks you're willing to take. I will say the higher you get to max the more you should be concerned. And once/if you pass the published max you're on your own as to how it's safe in your gun.

So my question to you is that if you're happy with the loads your using then why change? If you want to try other loads than do it safely.

In my own case, I'm working up loads for my 9mm that are in the ranges published. I don't feel comfortable going beyond what's published at this time. Others obviously do, but I don't. So you have to figure out if it's worth the effort and if you feel qualified to see the warning signs and will take action to be safe if/when you see them.

 

[Tilos]

Search/check data for 38+P/158/HP-38
Here, and at others sites:
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

 

[rsrocket1]

Your Security Six can easily handle 357 Mag pressures even if loaded in a 38 Special case. Note that I said 357 Magnum pressures and not 357 Magnum loads in a 38 special case. Since the 38 Special case is 0.13" shorter than the 357 Mag case, you have less volume so the same charge weight in a 357 Mag case will produce higher pressure in a 38 Special case. On top of that, you should not make it a regular practice to load 38 Special cartridges to pressures that are above 38 Special specs simply because there may come a day when someone tries to shoot that cartridge in a lightweight 38 special gun and damage it. I've loaded beyond 38 +P pressures in a 38 Special case and neither the case nor the gun noticed any difference but I don't make it a regular practice and I didn't keep any of those loads any longer than the time it took to load them and shoot them at the range.

That being said, I would strongly recommend you get hold of some 357 Magnum cases and load em up with data from the Hodgdon website. You should be able to get 1000 fps+ with the published load.

With slightly slower powders you can get 1000 fps+ loads and still stay within safe 38 special limits (although some may be +P) using Unique/Universal/Unequal, BE-86 or Power Pistol. My favorite load for my 4" Service Six is 5g Unique under a Lee 358-158-RF seated to the crimp groove and a good crimp @ low to mid 900's. Recoil is stout enough to make you feel like you're shooting something substantial, but not so big that becomes bothersome.

 

[mdi]

Do yourself a favor, ignore forum expert's load data and stick with lead bullet data from your Lyman manual. I've been reloading for quite a while and for 30 years I have paid no attention to any forum expert, gun counter clerk, etc. for any load data. All my info comes from published manuals. If you listen to anyone throwing out load data eventually you're gonna have problems, some may be simple or some may be tragic...

Start with low/starting loads and go up until you're satisfied or max recommended charge is reached, all the while inspecting cases and performance for over pressure loads...

 

[Walkalong]

It's a bad idea to load .38 Spl brass over +P pressures as they may find their way into an old .38 Spl revolver. Your reloading bench, your risk, but it isn't a good idea IMHO.

There is a good bit of data out there for plated bullets these days. Stick with it. In case you were not aware, W-231 and HP-38 is the same powder, if that helps the data search.

A couple of posts that may help.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-124gr-berrys-flat-points.498518/#post-6195350

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/380-plated-data.818632/#post-10500159

 

[springer99]

My Lyman 3rd Edition Pistol & Revolver book shows the following for HardCast Lead and 231, for 38Spl.
155gr SWC gascheck 4.7 gr. W231 normal max
5.0 gr. W231 +P max
160gr. Roundnose flatbase 4.9 gr. W231 normal max
5.2 gr. W231 +P max

I normally shoot 158gr. SWC Hi-Tec coated, sized to .358dia. in my 38Spl. using 3.5gr. for pussycat range loads, and 4.9gr. for serious work. The later is a handful in my 642 but are very accurate, don't lead and extract easily. For some reason, 38Spl data seems to be all over the map, and the Hodgdon data is suspiciously low; possibly because it's based on the very soft, swaged bullets?

 

[GooseGestapo]

It really depends on your components and gun. i.e. : bullet composition, design, brass, and what your shooting it in. A Ruger Sec6 or GP100 is a different animal than a vintage Colt Detective Spl. or S&W Chief Spl.

A S&W or Ruger .357 will handle most any +p or bootleg +P+, but I won't let such within the same day proximity with my Performance Ctr K -frame worked .38Spl Match Service guns. A single cylinder full of +P 158gr loads with a published load of HP38 required reworking the cylinder end shake to get it (S&W M14 HB with action by Jon Seifret at S&W performance Ctr) back to holding the X-ring at 25yds. A hard learned lesson for sure. One cylinder did what normally takes 10,000+ rounds to do. I held the NRA national record for a month, with that gun, till Phil Hemphill beat me by 1X for current record. I can still walk out and shoot a clean match with, though 480-46x is beyond me now. He also used a Performance Ctr Mod14... .We both used a Precision Delta 158gr SWC over 3.6gr HP38/win231... in case you're wondering. 4.0is a great "service" load. ~825fps 4"bbl.

 

[NoirFan]

My Lyman 3rd Edition Pistol & Revolver book shows the following for HardCast Lead and 231, for 38Spl.
155gr SWC gascheck 4.7 gr. W231 normal max
5.0 gr. W231 +P max
160gr. Roundnose flatbase 4.9 gr. W231 normal max
5.2 gr. W231 +P max

I normally shoot 158gr. SWC Hi-Tec coated, sized to .358dia. in my 38Spl. using 3.5gr. for pussycat range loads, and 4.9gr. for serious work. The later is a handful in my 642 but are very accurate, don't lead and extract easily. For some reason, 38Spl data seems to be all over the map, and the Hodgdon data is suspiciously low; possibly because it's based on the very soft, swaged bullets?

Do yourself a favor, ignore forum expert's load data and stick with lead bullet data from your Lyman manual. I've been reloading for quite a while and for 30 years I have paid no attention to any forum expert, gun counter clerk, etc. for any load data. All my info comes from published manuals. If you listen to anyone throwing out load data eventually you're gonna have problems, some may be simple or some may be tragic...Start with low/starting loads and go up until you're satisfied or max recommended charge is reached, all the while inspecting cases and performance for over pressure loads...

So this is where my confusion comes from. I just looked at my Lyman #50 and the 231 top load data is:
155gr lead: 4.7gr 231
158gr lead: 4 gr 231
160gr lead: 4.9gr 231
Small bullet weight variance, very different max loads listed. Why is that?

My Hodgon 2017 top load data is:
158gr lead: 3.7gr 231

Then you contrast all these with the Lyman 3rd edition data above - very different. I'm not trying to hot rod anything right away, just looking for some general idea on where the safe "ceiling" is for 38 special and W231.

 

[murf]

Bullets vary in diameter, bearing surface, material, base design, nose design, etc.. Suggest you stick with the reloading manual data and, start low and work up.

murf

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have loaded a cast 158gr bullet over 5.0gr W231 and I probably won't do it again. They were definitely hot which is why I tested them in a .357 Magnum revolver. I'm thinking for me 4.7gr W231 is the max with a cast 158gr bullet.

If you want more velocity without blowing past the pressure limits go to a slower powder like HS-6 or the newer W572.

Edit: Typo

 

[mdi]

Start with "starting loads", and don't base your load levels on max data. You can't get into trouble with starting loads but you can with max loads. I've been reloading 38 Special, off and on, since 1969 and have seen no reason to go to max. loads or even +P. (when I thought I needed "ugh! more power", I went to a 357...) Nobody will call you a sissy if you start light and work up, and this is a place to keep testosterone in check...