.38 Special +P: Power Pistol + 158g LSWC. Velocity from a snubie?

[Macchina]

I stopped into my local reloading shop and was surprised to see he had a box of the 500 hard cast 158g .358 LSCW I like. I was running low and asked him to recommend me a powder for a +P .38 Special loading. He immediately said "Power Pistol". This guy is knows his stuff when it comes to reloading, so I listen to him.

Looking at data, it appears 6g is the max. I will be doing initial load testing out of my 4.2" .357 SP101, but will rework the load once my .38 +P LCR comes in.

Any good recipes or advice for this (new to me) powder? I heard a nice crimp reduces the flash, are we talking heavy roll here or what? Any idea what kind of velocities I can expect from a 1 7/8" revolver with a max load?

 

[ljnowell]

I load the Missouri Bullet 357 Action, which is a 158gr LSWC over 6.0gr of power pistol. I have worked it up a little higher(which is above published max). I also load the hornady 158gr LSWC-hp over 6.0gr of Power Pistol.

I couldnt tell you velocity, but I can tell you its about all you want to shoot out of a lightweight snubby, like my LCR.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I was running low and asked him to recommend me a powder for a +P .38 Special loading. He immediately said "Power Pistol". This guy is knows his stuff when it comes to reloading, so I listen to him.

He may know what he's doing but I disagree with him. Some powders run hot and Power Pistol is one of them. I do not like using it with lead bullets. I like HS-6 much better and that's what I use in my FBI replica load.

 

[ljnowell]

He may know what he's doing but I disagree with him. Some powders run hot and Power Pistol is one of them. I do not like using it with lead bullets. I like HS-6 much better and that's what I use in my FBI replica load.

There are better powders for the task than power pistol, I use it because its what I have.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

There are better powders for the task than power pistol, I use it because its what I have.

My post was not in response to you ljnowell, it was in response to the guy in the store who told the OP to use Power Pistol.

 

[Rob1109]

Find member TERRY_P who has already done this testing this powder that bullet.

 

[Macchina]

Find member TERRY_P who has already done this testing this powder that bullet.

He has 6 posts... and in one he states he doesn't shoot +P out of his 38...

 

[gamestalker]

I don't load with LSWC, but I do load JHP +P 38spcl. using Longshot. My work up took me well beyond the maximum, as published on Hogdon's reloading pages. I won't display that load on the open forum out of respect for THR's policy. I also don't advocate anyone exceeding maximum published data, especially based on my work up.

Anyway, what I ended up with from my snubby S&W 66, was a consistent velocity of just barely under 1100 fps, with a 158 gr. XTP. Pressures signs were insignificant to any extent, and muzzle flash was not significant either. I was very impressed with accuracy at 10 yds. using a rest. Recoil wasn't at all significant, but that could be because an M66 is about as heavy as a boat anchor though?

As I continued working up beyond the maximum, I concluded that, despite increasing the charge more, that I was just wasting Longshot with no benefit. And regarding pressures, there was no indication that they had reached the limit to any degree.

GS

 

[ljnowell]

My post was not in response to you ljnowell, it was in response to the guy in the store who told the OP to use Power Pistol.

I know, I just wanted to put out there that I agree with you. If its all the OP has, by all means use it, it'll work. It certainly isnt my first choice with lead bullets though, and like you said its not the best choice.

 

[Lj1941]

My favorite load for 158 LSWC +P load is 3.8 grains of RedDot in my Model 19. It is accurate and clean with the NEW RedDot. My son shoots that load in his snub model 66 and loves it.I have Power Pistol but only use it with jacketed 9,40 & 45 full power loads.

 

[Steve C]

If you want a factory equivalent to Winchesters +P LSWCHP load use 4.7grs W231 behind any 158 gr SWC design in a Winchester case lit by a WSP primer. If you don't have W231 use 5.2grs of Unique.

As mentioned, Power Pistol runs hot and while its great for small volume high pressure cartridges like the 9mm and .40 S&W its not so good for lower pressure cartridges like the .38 spl and the .45 acp or lead bullets. When Alliant first produced load data for it, lead bullet data was conspicuously absent. Enough people apparently asked for lead data so they put some out but as mentioned PP is a hot burning powder and has leaded much more than Unique or 231 in the lead SWC 158gr .38 spl loads I've tried it with.

It also leaves a lot of carbon scouring on the side of .38 spl cases 1/4 to 1/3 of the way down from the case mouth even when using jacketed bullets and near maximum charges indicating lack of enough pressure to seal the case in the chamber.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If you want a factory equivalent to Winchesters +P LSWCHP load use 4.7grs W231 behind any 158 gr SWC design in a Winchester case lit by a WSP primer. If you don't have W231 use 5.2grs of Unique.

I'll add one more suggestion to those two good loads, give 6.7gr HS-6 a try for another factory equivalent Winchester FBI Load. I load a "super FBI Load" meant for my snub nose revolvers which generates 889 fps from a 2" barrel. I won't post the charge weight of HS-6 here because it's above any current published data but I'm fairly sure my FBI load is just under the 20,000 psi limits.

 

[joneb]

Accurate #5 is another good heavy load powder for 38spl with 158gr cast bullets with a heavy crimp and brass of a uniform length.

 

[336A]

Everything I've heard about Power Pistol has been good, I haven't heard anything about it being a hot powder. I know of one individual that uses Power Pistol for his .3 SPL 158gr +P loads and is quite happy with it's performance, he is well known by some posters here. The only complaint that I've heard about this powder is that it is quite flashy and has quite a loud report.

For my +P loads I use data straight from the Lyman manual using Unique powder which has been around for years, here is some good reading on that load http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/125541-four-high-performance-38-special-handloads.html Unique is a good reliable powder for this application even still today. Just work your way up slowly with the Power Pistol and let us know how it works out for you.

 

[Macchina]

My typical plinking load is 4g of W231 under these 158g LSWC bullets. I am looking for something a bit spicier.

I do also shoot 158g XTP's. Would that be a better bullet to work up a max load for?

 

[ljnowell]

I do also shoot 158g XTP's. Would that be a better bullet to work up a max load for?

Power Pistol would be much better suited to that bulet. AA#5 would be a good choice also.

 

[jfh]

max velocities from a 2" barrel:

with 38 Special cases and 158-gr. bullets (typically LSWCs, but occasionally LSWC-HPs, NOT jacketed bullets), I've found that

1. The current factory '38+P' rounds run just under or at 800 fps.

2. Using AA#5 and loading the 38 Spl-CIP pressure levels (<=21,750 PSI), you can get up to about 815 fps. Note that #5 is somewhat temperature sensitive.

3. Ramshot's TRUE BLUE will get another 25 fps or so and stay at or below 38-CIP pressures. This is my preferred powder now for 38 Special loads for short barrels, although AA#5 is a good one as well. Neither will be particularly clean.


If one can load 357 Magnum cases, then there are oodles of loads that you can work up and that are fairly mild--probably about 24000 PSI. Here again, True Blue and AA#5 work well. PP is loud and flashy, but it is also good in this kind of loading.

Personally, I found that an upper limit of about 915 fps with 158-gr. bullets, shot from an M&P 340, was about all my hand could handle, even when it was well toughened.


Jim H.

 

[243winxb]

38 Special +P

6 gr. "Power Pistol" = 920 fps A guess. My loading of 5.5gr Alliant Unique (Over current listed maximum) gives 799 fps average, measured out of M60. My cast bullets run on the heavy side, closer to 163-165gr weight.

 

[ssyoumans]

6.0gr Power Pistol pushing a MBC 158gr LSWC measured 839 fps out of my 2" Taurus 85.

4.9gr Unique measured 774 fps

1980's Winchester 158gr LSWCHP +P measured 750 fps

Buffalo Bore's load ran 979 fps

Temp was 76 degrees, 800' above sea level. Measurements taken 10' from the muzzle using a Chrony F1. 5 shot average.

 

[Macchina]

6.0gr Power Pistol pushing a MBC 158gr LSWC measured 839 fps out of my 2" Taurus 85.

4.9gr Unique measured 774 fps

1980's Winchester 158gr LSWCHP +P measured 750 fps

Buffalo Bore's load ran 979 fps

Temp was 76 degrees, 800' above sea level. Measurements taken 10' from the muzzle using a Chrony F1. 5 shot average.

Awesome, thanks! That is exactly what I was looking for.
Do you remember how pressure looked? Did you ever try going a bit above 6 grains? I ask because many people report low-pressure signs (powder residue on outside of brass) even at the max loading...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

My typical plinking load is 4g of W231 under these 158g LSWC bullets. I am looking for something a bit spicier.

I do also shoot 158g XTP's. Would that be a better bullet to work up a max load for?

When I want something on the hotter side than W231 will normally supply in a .38 Special I use HS-6.

 

[ssyoumans]

I never went above 6.0gr of PP. I don't recall any low pressure signs of powder burn marks on the brass. They were so flashy, I don't use PP anymore for my +P loads. I prefer a max charge of Unique. Just wish PP had less flash.

Hard to gauge high pressure loads in a 38 Special, because say 24k PSI isn't going to blow or flatten primers but is still way over +P specs and can over time damage a revolver. That's why I pretty much stick to published load data for the 38.

I've been meaning to experiment more with True Blue and AA#5. Both meter great like PP, but a lot less flash. I couldn't get very good velocity with Silhouette. Ran much slower than the Ram Shot guide, even when using a 6" barrel. Their 38 Special data is for a 7.5" barrel. Kind of annoying when powder companies choose such a long barrel for their published data. Just use an honest 4" or 6" barrel please .
Unfortunately neither Ramshot or AA publish +P data using lead or even JHP loads. Only for Copper and frangible.

 

[jfh]

Chrono tests I ran for 2" barrels

included a 38 Special load of 6.0 gr. of PP under a 158-gr LSWC.

It was shot from a S&W 640--e.g., 2&1/8" barrel. On a overcast day with the temp at 75, a ten-shot string averaged 839 fps--ES of 41, SD of 14. (Ten-shot or more strings are necessary to reach a 95% level of certainty.)

If one shoots a modern-made 38 Special (after 1980-81), I see no reason not to load to 38-CIP pressures. 'CIP' is the European standard for 38 Special; they do not use 'standard' of 'plus' designations. The 38-CIP standard is the equivalent of 21,750 PSI.

That can nominally translate into boosting the max charge for a given powder about 5%. IOW, I would not hesitate to load to 6.3 gr of PP IF my pistol was made after the 38-CIP standard was set--that was 1981. The rationale is this: I don't really think S&W, etc., made 38 Special pistols to two different standards--i.e., for the European market and for the US / North American market. And, of course, this is a non-issue for 38/357 pistols--even ones built to the latest 357 Magnum / 35000 PSI SAAMI standard.

When I developed some higher-pressure 38 Special loads a few years ago (remember the SR-4756 discussions over at the S&W forum?), Jerrold (?--a moderator at Handloads.com) and I worked on calculating and estimating pressures for these intermediate loads. We later confirmed these with a ballistician.

For what I now call an "FBI900 load, we calculated that the pressure for that kind of load (e.g., a 158-gr bullet running a 900+ fps from a nominal 2" barrel) was about 24,000.

Those kinds of loads should not, IMO, be built in 38 Special cases, although some do. I build them in 357 cases and don't worry about it--however, all my 38 handguns are 38/357s.

Jim H.

 

[Macchina]

I loaded up some 5.7 grain and 6.3 grain loads to try out of my SP101. I used a heavy crimp and the 158 grain LSWC's mentioned above. I saw no flash shooting in the daytime, but man did they hit hard. I warmed up with my regular target load (4 grains of W231 under the 158's) and the PP loads were much more stout, my bloody knuckle (usually a hefty 357 occurence) proves it.

I found out today someone stole my shooting bench over the winter, so I did my shooting over a log... Accuracy was about 4" at 15 yards. I can do 2" on my best day, so 4" on a log is acceptable at this stage.

I did have leading in the cylinders and barrel, however I also get this with the W231 loads... I have to look into this bullet/gun combo on that.

Pressure was an eye-opener: though no primers are getting flattened at 38 pressures, there is imprinting of the breechface to compare. The 5.7 and 6.3 PP loads both showed less pressure than the W231 load and there was some powder on the outside of the brass.

Conclusion: pressure does not appear to be a problem, leading MAY be a problem.

I want to work up some loads with this powder and some 158 grain jacketed or plated bullets. Any recommendations?

 

[jfh]

from the horse's mouth....

ALLIANT Power Pistol recipes for 357 Magnum

You'll probably have to enter appropriate in order to see the data--e.g., agree to the liability waiver.

Jim H.