.38 Super for protection

[Curiousity]

.38 Super Lo mas chingon...specially out of a 1911 you cannot go wrong....

 

[silversport]

The 38 Super was developed during the gangster era. It was introduced in 1929 with the primary purpose of giving the lawman more punch. The 38 Special and 45 ACP round nose ammo would not penetrate the heavy steel car bodies of the era. This is back when cars were made of real steel.

The 38 Super offered a 130 grain FMJ bullet at 1450 fps out of a 5" Colt Government model. This magnum-level performance predates the 357 magnum by 6 years.

If I'm not mistaken, when the 38 Super was introduced it was the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world.

not for competition (but it works there too)...it was bred for Law Enforcement...like Texas Colt said...mine's from 1933 and it says Super .38 on it...

Bill

 

[doubs43]

If I'm not mistaken, when the 38 Super was introduced it was the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world.

It was the most powerful factory cartridge available for semi-autos. The factory 45 Colt cartridge loaded with a 255 grain bullet and 40 grains of black powder was still the most powerful handgun cartridge until the .357 Magnum came along in 1935.

 

[22LRFan]

When was the last time you saw a 40 or a 9mm bust 1450 fps?

If im not misstaken the super 38 came out back during the gangster days to be able to shoot through cars for affect.

I'm not arguing with either of the above quotes. However, if they are both true, and they probably are, must users of the .38 Super be concern with over-penetration? Even with JHP rounds?

 

[ak-kev]

Concerned about over penetration........probably not anymore so than I am with a .357 magnum at 1450fps.

 

[silversport]

back then they were concerned with penetration...I doubt they were thinking much of over penetration in the late '20s...it was to give Law Enforcement added oomph against barriers in the car...like doors, etc...
Bill

 

[earlthegoat2]

It was introduced in 1929 with the primary purpose of giving the lawman more punch.

I have not found any evidence of this anywhere. Maybe lawmen got wise to it soon after it became known but as to its development purely for law enforcement to have more punch, I have seen no proof of yet. It could be argued that the bad guys got hold of it first to beat the archaic body armor of the day that the 45 would not. Then the lawmen grasped onto the idea for fender punching. IDK.

This is back when cars were made of real steel

And guns were too.

 

[WC145]

Hre's an excerpt from an article about .38 Super 1911s -

(Author’s note)The Super .38 was developed in a joint venture
between Colt and the law enforcement officials during the turbulent
late 1920s in the United States. Criminals such as John Dillinger,
Lester Gillis (Baby Face Nelson), Clyde Barrow, and Bonnie Parker stole
and/or modified their weapons to the extent that police of the day were
woefully outgunned when confronted by such gangsters. The Super .38 was
devised (as was the .357 Magnum over at Smith & Wesson in 1935) to
give law enforcement officers a sidearm which would deliver a
projectile capable of penetrating the steel bodywork of the automobiles
of the era. At the time of its introduction, the Super .38 was the
“most powerful handgun” in the world. The agents of the U.S. Justice
Department’s Division of Investigation (later changed to the F.B.I. in
1935) clamored to get the new pistol, as did their adversaries on the
other side of the law. It’s not hard to figure out why!

Most police of the day carried .38 Special revolvers, firing a
158 gr. round nose lead bullet at around 750 feet per second. The Super
.38 of the time delivered a 130 gr. full metal jacketed bullet at a
muzzle velocity approaching 1,300 feet per second. The new cartridge
was even able to defeat crude bullet-proof vests available at that
time. Cops and criminals alike were impressed by those statistics, and
the Colts chambered for the new round were bought (and stolen) like
hotcakes.

 

[Deanimator]

A .38 Super is going to be at least as good as a 9x19mm, with heavier bullets and at lower pressures.

When I get back to work, a .38 Super is next on my list, either an RIA or a reasonably priced Commander sized gun if I can find one.

 

[Pilot]

As others have said, the .38 Super is a relaoders dream and can get near magnum velocities. Much higher than the 9x19, but you must reload to realize this advantage. Factory ammo is loaded to the least common denominator of the older .38 Super pistols.

 

[belus]

A great comparison of 38 super to 9mm by Stephan Camp.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm

Some factory ammo may be downloaded, but I don't think you can make it a rule of thumb. .38 Acp pistols don't exist much anymore and there's a pretty strong marketing incentive in self-defense ammo to build as powerful a round as possible within pressure limits.

Corbon stuff (124gr @ 1400fps) is showing some serious pressure signs.
http://38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html#Anchor-35882
pierced primers - http://38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html#Anchor-3800

 

[doubs43]

At the time of its introduction, the Super .38 was the
“most powerful handgun” in the world.

I hope the author of that "fact" researched the rest of his material better than he did that bit of mis-information. See post #28.

 

[Chuck Warner]

it should have read "most powerful semi auto cartridge".

 

[earlthegoat2]

Here's an excerpt from an article about .38 Super 1911s -

Thanks for that info.

 

[Kleanbore]

It [(.38 super)] was the most powerful factory cartridge available for semi-autos. The factory 45 Colt cartridge loaded with a 255 grain bullet and 40 grains of black powder was still the most powerful handgun cartridge until the .357 Magnum came along in 1935.

How so? In a model 1873 colt, the .45 255 grain black powder load had a muzzle energy of about 380 foot pounds. That was more than twice the energy of the 1860 Army .44, but the .38 Super Automatic at 490+ ft. lbs. was about 30% more powerful than the .45. The .38 Super also exceeded the power of the Colt Walker .44 at 450 by a slight amount.

Patrick Sweeney says that one of the key requirements for an Army handgun at the turn of the last century was its ability to seriously impair the horse of an enemy cavalry man, hence the .45 ACP, but he opines that, had the .38 Super been available in 1911, it might have prevailed over the .45.

 

[earplug]

Curious about Mexican ammo 38 Super options

I understand that military rounds such as the 45 acp and 9mm are restricted, I wonder if good self defense rounds are made for the 38 Super for the Mexican market?

 

[ak-kev]

I have had several correspondence with Buffalo Bore recently, and they assure me that they will have Super defense ammo in the future. The reason for my excitement is that their 9mm fodder is very potent. They have clocked their 124gr HP @ 1330fps out if a 4" Browning Hi-Power. I can only get 1260fps. So if the same holds true for their up-comming .38Super, then it should be a smkoker My Super loads run between 150 and 180fps faster than my 9mm loads. The only drawback is they said they are going to wait until the ammo rush slows abit before dedicating manpower and resources toward a...................no-so popular round. Anyway, time will tell. Kevin.

 

[doubs43]

How so?

The original .45 Colt black powder load of 40 grains propelled the 250-255 grain bullet at a nominal 970 feet per second (300 m/s). Authors John Taffin and Mike Venturino have demonstrated that modern black powder loadings of the 45 Colt cartridge frequently achieve velocities in the vicinity of 1,000 feet per second (300 m/s) with the 7-1/2" "cavalry" barrel length, even though modern solid-head cases make it impossible to load a full 40 grains.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Single_Action_Army Scroll to the 45 Colt Cartridge Variations.

That puts the original loading of the .45 Colt at 533 Ft-Lbs of energy, easily outdoing the original 38 Super factory load.

 

[WC145]

Georgia Arms has a .38 Super load sporting a 124gr Gold Dot at 1350fps at a reasonable price - $22.50 per 50, less in bulk. You just have to wait a while for your order since they're backed up.

 

[doubs43]

No one should take my comparison of the original 45 Colt load with the original 38 Super load as a slap or insult against the 38 Super. The 38 Super is a great cartridge and really doesn't need to be defended.

I own a 1927 Argentine pistol that has been modified to shoot six different cartridges. The 38 Super is one of them. Another is the .38-45 which can drive a .357" bullet to .357 Magnum velocities without a pressure problem. Either one makes an excellent choice for self defense.

 

[bullturkey]

I looked at a Sig 220 in 38super today. Used but excellent , 4 mags, original box, papers, 600.00 out the door. Debating (German made and German proofed )

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

That SIG sounds like a fair deal, and might be somewhat collectible. Mags would be hard to find, and worth a bit, too.

 

[tipoc]

On the origins of the .38 Super: First there was the .38 acp Model of 1900 which Browning designed for the military. You can see a pic of that here and read a little about it...http://www.coltautos.com/

These guns in .38 acp were adopted by the Army and Navy but used only a bit. The round sent a 115 gr. .38 caliber bullet downrange at about 1150 fps from a 5" barrel and about 1050 fps with a 130 gr. pill which was about the same as the 9mm would do 2 years later (9mm was introduced in 1902 in the Luger).

But the military was leaning toward a .45 caliber gun which they finally convinced Colt and Browning to do for them but that's another story. Meanwhile, while they worked on a .45 the .38acp grew in popularity as a sporting cartridge. It's growth was slow but it was some the U.S., after all, was a nation of revolver shooters.

When the U.S. military got the 1911 sales of the .38 acp gun began slowly to fall off. By the 1920s Colt was looking for ways to boost sales of it's 1911s which lagged without orders from the military to fill. So they developed the .38 Super. The Super did well.

Colt developed the .38 Super to sell guns, same as every gun manufacturer does with any new round introduced. They also had two markets in mind, one was as a sporting round and they advertised it as a hunting round. The other was for law enforcement and the military.

With the rise of gangsters who used the new fangled automobile to get around the country quickly, law enforcement wanted a more powerful round from their handguns. S&W and Colt were in the hunt. Colt hit first with the .38 Super and S&W hit with the 38/44 hand ejector and a few years later the .357 (which they originally thought would only sell as a hunting round).

Now the .38 Super was the most powerful round that could be fired out of any commercially made handgun with commercially made ammo at the time it was introduced if we go by factory ballistics, that is velocity and energy. (see Barnes, "Cartridges of the World" 10th edition pg. 285) Till the .357 mag was introduced it held that title. It remained the most powerful round that was shot out of any U.S. made semi auto till the 10mm was introduced. It might be true that the old black powder Colt with a 7 1/2" barrel handloaded could get 1100 fps or so but in the 1920s no factory was making ammo like that for the Colt SAA or any other gun in .45 Colt or .44 Spl.

Now I said the Super did fairly well. It was chambered in the Thompson sub machine gun, it did well from the jump in overseas military sales, it did just ok in U.S. law enforcement sales (actually it did about as well as the 1911 in .45 acp did with law enforcement in the U.S. which is to say not all that well at all). It was used by some in the FBI and the Border Patrol and particularly in the South West of the U.S. where a flat shooting round that hit hard at long distances and penetrated barriers was appreciated. But mostly law enforcement liked revolvers.

A wider variety of ammo existed for revolvers than for semis.

When law enforcement switched to semi's in the 1980s they went with the 9mm and bypassed both the .38 Super and the .45 (except for a few).

The Super languished till the rise of competitive shooting in the 80 and 90s where it dominated for about 20 years and has given some way to the .40S&W and the .45 and rule changes that hacked at it's dominance. It is still very popular in some competitive circles.

Anyway enough of this long windedness.

tipoc

 

[doubs43]

It might be true that the old black powder Colt with a 7 1/2" barrel handloaded could get 1100 fps or so but in the 1920s no factory was making ammo like that for the Colt SAA or any other gun in .45 Colt or .44 Spl.

If you'll check page 389 of Hatcher's book "Pistols and Revolvers", you'll see that as of 1927 the 40 grain black powder load using a 250 grain bullet was still being factory loaded for the .45 Colt. While I can't put a specific date on when that factory load was dropped, the black powder load was still being manufactured at least into 1927 by Remington. Remington also offered a smokeless load that wasn't as powerful. I can, if necessary, copy the table and post it.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

If you'll check page 389 of Hatcher's book "Pistols and Revolvers", you'll see that as of 1927 the 40 grain black powder load using a 250 grain bullet was still being factory loaded for the .45 Colt. While I can't put a specific date on when that factory load was dropped, the black powder load was still being manufactured at least into 1927 by Remington. Remington also offered a smokeless load that wasn't as powerful. I can, if necessary, copy the table and post it.

Well, that explains it. The "blackpowder", higher energy loading had been dropped for two years before the "Super .38" was introduced, making the then "new" cartridge THE most powerful. Six years later, the .357 Magnum stole the title.