38 Super is Super

[Howland937]

I haven't had the opportunity to use vihtavouri. Have heard nothing but good things about it.

Will have to look for some 320. Thx

N105 is the only VV powder I've used, and I really like it. In my head, I needed to push a 124gr bullet in the 1400fps range in order to feel like there was an advantage over 9mm+p. N105 and AA7 have both done that for me.
I realize now I don't have to do that to justify 38 Super, but it is nice knowing I can.

I've also had positive experience with Hs6, WSF and Power Pistol, with all 3 capable of getting into the 1300+ fps range with 124gr VCrowns and XTPs.
Shooting those types of loads scared me away from the aluminum frame though. No idea if there would have ever been an issue.

 

[Crazy Horse]

N105 is the only VV powder I've used, and I really like it. In my head, I needed to push a 124gr bullet in the 1400fps range in order to feel like there was an advantage over 9mm+p. N105 and AA7 have both done that for me.
I realize now I don't have to do that to justify 38 Super, but it is nice knowing I can.

I've also had positive experience with Hs6, WSF and Power Pistol, with all 3 capable of getting into the 1300+ fps range with 124gr VCrowns and XTPs.
Shooting those types of loads scared me away from the aluminum frame though. No idea if there would have ever been an issue.

Looking at the composition of the Kimber LW. The slide is steel and the barrel is stainless steel. With the PSI all occurring up in the barrel and some in the slide area, is the danger excess pressure (PSI) or it it the force of the slide moving back and returning to battery and potentially cracking the frame?

TIA

CH

 

[fxvr5]

Pressure is not the issue because N105 load data is within pressure specs.

Even full bore 38 Super (124 gr at 1450 fps) has less recoil than a 45 Auto with a 230 grain bullet at 850 fps.

 

[Howland937]

Pressure is not the issue because N105 load data is within pressure specs.

Even full bore 38 Super (124 gr at 1450 fps) has less recoil than a 45 Auto with a 230 grain bullet at 850 fps.

So, in your estimation, was I needlessly concerned with the frame strength of the LW with max loads? I know Kimber makes an aluminum frame LW in .45 Auto as well.

Looking at the composition of the Kimber LW. The slide is steel and the barrel is stainless steel. With the PSI all occurring up in the barrel and some in the slide area, is the danger excess pressure (PSI) or it it the force of the slide moving back and returning to battery and potentially cracking the frame?

TIA

CH

I wasn't worried so much about pressure since those barrels have a fully supported chamber. The load data I used was supposedly developed to be safe in barrels that didn't have full support.
I was just worried that the frame was getting battered and would eventually fail.

But if the above statement about 45acp recoil vs 38 Super is true...then I didn't really need to worry.

 

[fxvr5]

Run the numbers yourself.
http://kwk.us/recoil.html

 

[Howland937]

No way man... I'd trust you to do it more than I'd trust me to.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Fxvr5,

I used a different recoil calculator and came up with the following (the link you provided was for rifles and accounted for buttstock). There were also couple of figures that I could not deduce, but I am thinking it is because it applies to rifles. I used a different recoil calculator on the internet omnicalculator.

Here are the 45 acp figures (I used my 5" RIA 1911) all steel.



That's 5.09 Ft. lbs of recoil for the 45acp using WST (4.7 gr) and a 230 gr FMJ projectile.

Below are the 38 super +p figures (I used the Kimber 5" LW 1911)



3.877 ft. lbs of recoil using HS-6 (7gr) and a 130 FMJ projectile.

Based on the calculations using the estimates from the reloads I put together, you are correct, the recoil energy of a 45acp is greater by 1.213 ft lbs.

Thanks for the insight on calculating recoil. Without performing the calculations, shooting the ATI 38 super +p felt like it had more recoil (didn't shoot 45 acp that day). On feeling alone at that time, it felt more like a 357 magnum out of a heavy revolver (gp100 or Security 6). I'll have to take both my Kimbers next time and compare them back to back between 38 Super and 45 acp.

THX

CH

 

[12Bravo20]

Curiosity got the better of me, I know dangerous. I measured my Starline 9mm Largo brass and it is the exact same measurements as Starline 38 Super Comp (rimless) brass. And the only difference between those two and 38 Super brass is the rim diameter.

All of my Starline brass is stamped 9mm Largo but they measure 0.900" long and average 0.382" diameter at the rim. Which is in spec for the dimensions I can find for 38 Super Comp.

 

[fxvr5]

That link is not just for rifles. It's for anything that goes bang.

The one variable you can choose is the gas speed. At that link, it defaults to 1.50, which is the default for handguns and what SAAMI uses for handguns. There is some debate on the 'correct' gas speed and in reality it likely varies depending on the cartridge and powder used.

The 1.25 gas speed is often used for long barrel shotguns. 1.50 is used for average length shotguns and handguns. 1.75 gas speed is used for high power rifles.
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Gun-Recoil-Formulae-2018-07-9-1.pdf

 

[fxvr5]

I used a different recoil calculator and came up with the following (the link you provided was for rifles and accounted for buttstock). There were also couple of figures that I could not deduce, but I am thinking it is because it applies to rifles. I used a different recoil calculator on the internet omnicalculator.

Thanks for the insight on calculating recoil. Without performing the calculations, shooting the ATI 38 super +p felt like it had more recoil (didn't shoot 45 acp that day). On feeling alone at that time, it felt more like a 357 magnum out of a heavy revolver (gp100 or Security 6). I'll have to take both my Kimbers next time and compare them back to back between 38 Super and 45 acp.

For a fair comparison you need to use the same weight for the gun.

 

[Crazy Horse]

For a fair comparison you need to use the same weight for the gun.

But the guns I use for each caliber (45acp vs 38 super +p) do not weigh the same. I thought that one is supposed to use the weight of the firearm they are firing the given projectile out of?

CH

 

[fxvr5]

Asking which cartridge has more recoil is different than asking which gun has more recoil. See?

 

[Crazy Horse]

Asking which cartridge has more recoil is different than asking which gun has more recoil. See?

In my thought process, when I say recoil, I factor the gun the cartridge is going into as I have seen other shooters state the same when comparing firearms and calibers. Can you have cartridge recoil without it coming out of a firearm? In my case, I cannot. In theory one can (lab), but that would not help me since I am shooting a different firearm for each caliber. Factoring the gun weight in the calculation (using the weight of the gun) helps in determining the ft lbs of felt recoil of the specific cartridge in the firearm it is coming out of.

CH

 

[bangswitch]

Here is mine.
View attachment 1051545

Wow, that looks just like mine . I picked up that very model yesterday, looking forward to shooting it. This is my first .38 Super, but my 4th 1911. I want to find a dressier pair of wood grips for it, Altamont has one in particular I like but it's out of stock right now. Here's the RIA, with my other JMB offerings:

There is no difference between 38 Super and 38 Super +P. See post 32.

Hodgdon's 38 Super and 38 Super +P data are both loaded to the same pressures. Therefore, there are no " +P " recipe options.

I was wondering about that. When I bought my RIA yesterday, I picked up a box of PMC 130 grain FMJ to play with until I get dies to reload with. On the box it said "+P" and gave a MV of 1100 fps. When I looked up the loading data in my Hornady manual, the 125 grain and 140 grain data showed 1100 as a sort of upper middle range.

 

[fxvr5]

I was wondering about that. When I bought my RIA yesterday, I picked up a box of PMC 130 grain FMJ to play with until I get dies to reload with. On the box it said "+P" and gave a MV of 1100 fps. When I looked up the loading data in my Hornady manual, the 125 grain and 140 grain data showed 1100 as a sort of upper middle range.

Yeah, PMC's 130 grain is about 100 fps slower than everyone else's ammo. In the past, the standard 130 grain bullet ran at 1,300 fps. Now the 130 grain is 1,215 fps by most big ammo companies. Handloads with the right components bring it back to it's full glory, and then some.

 

[silversport]

...and I thought I knew a lot about the Super .38...fxvr5...THANK YOU for the tutorial!...

Bill