.380 fmj

[Gary A]

Lately I've been interested in .380s of all kinds, older, classic blowback pistols, and more modern locked breech pocket pistols. Reading about them and the ammo people use in them led me to these thoughts, which I thought I'd ask about here:

Many people argue that .380 is best served with fmj rounds because, they say, the .380 does not have enough power to both reliably expand and penetrate. It has also long been argued that many older, blowback guns were designed to shoot FMJ and are more reliable with ball than with modern HPs.

Their argument maintains that only FMJ rounds in .380 will reliably penetrate. It makes me wonder, therefore, if the reason .380 (and also .32) was so popular in Europe and other countries for so long is because the power level of .380 is ideal for self defense as long as one is shooting full metal jacket ammo because the power level is adequate to penetrate enough, but not too much. 9mm parabellum, on the other hand is a notorious over-penetrator in FMJ.

All of these arguments don't apply if we are talking about modern hollow points because with hollow points, the .380 might not penetrate enough and the 9mm is just right. In the days when all people had was ball ammo, however, the .380 was just about right and the 9mm penetrated too much.

Just wondering...

 

[MachIVshooter]

The .380 can certainly acheive adequate penetration and expansion with modern loads. Some people just hand onto the wisdom of yore.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP ammunition performance in ballistic gelatin.pdf

 

[Gary A]

I agree and wasn't intending to debate that. I was merely speculating that the caliber's long time popularity might have been that the .380 power level was well-suited to the fmj loads that were the only thing available and that 9 mm fmj was better suited to the battlefield where over-penetration was less a problem.

 

[holdencm9]

Back in the ol' days people weren't as big (obese) as nowadays. So .380 was MORE than enough.

The "right" amount of penetration is difficult to ascertain, but I imagine that yes, the popularity of the round means it was probably an adequate man-stopper, regardless of FMJ or HP. Notice I say adequate, not "great" or "fantastic." I think the Hague convention and reliability concerns outweighed any concerns that HP wouldn't penetrate enough, or that 9mm FMJ would penetrate too much.

It is interesting to study the history, development, and rise and fall of certain calibers. The evolution of both the 9mm and .380 are particularly interesting. 9mm is older than .380, developed by different people in difference countries. So it isn't as if they had the .380, and they developed the 9mm Luger round because the .380 wasn't up to snuff, quite the contrary. I think the biggest reason for the .380's popularity was because it is the largest, most powerful round that can be used in a straight blowback pistol (of reasonable size). You make the upgrade from .380 to 9mm, and you are forced to use a short recoil system, which is a more advanced, expensive thing to produce. If that wasn't the case, I am sure 380 would have never been as popular as it was/is.

 

[Gary A]

Interesting thoughts, holdencm9. Just what I'm looking for. Thanks.

 

[CZguy]

To me all pistol calibers are a compromise, and will not guarantee a one shot stop. For that I rely on my 870P in 12 gage. I carry a pocket .380 because it's always with me. When I carried a .45 ACP I found myself predicting whether or not I would need a gun, and left it behind pretty often.

Conclusion.

Carry whatever you can consistently carry each and every time you go out. It really comes down to a personal choice.

 

[GyMac]

Gary A,
I think you have an interesting post - I understand that you're just musing and do not have some kind of agenda. I liked that post about the .380 and 9mm being developed independently and not as competitors. And there is truth in the .380 being about the largest caliber possible in blowback pistols and this being its niche. The Russians specifically developed the 9mm Makarov with this purpose. What I've been thinking about lately is whether there is any real difference between a FMJ in .380, 9mm P, .38 Super, etc, if penetration is achieved? I suppose you could argue if a bone was hit or not. Just wondering.

 

[bikerdoc]

If you do your part modern 380 HP ammo is good enough That I have one in my pocket right now, as I put up the 45 when I got home.