.380acp or 38.spl?

[Dr.Rob]

I thought .38 Super was legal in Mexico? Colt continues to make high end .38 Supers for that market.

 

[FC]

With the restrictions in mind, I too would go with a 38spl with wadcutters, very accurate and the round itself has got it all over the .380.

380 LRN 100gr, 910fps from a Colt Mustang
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216

38 Spl 150gr hard cast wadcutter 961fps from a Ruger Sp101 3" barrel and 1005fps from a S&W Mt gun with a 4" barrel.
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111

With 50% more bullet weight, equivalent velocity in short barrels and higher velocity in longer barrels as compared to 380, I would say that the 38Spl definitively stomps the 380 in performance.

If I was looking for a pocket gun I would probably go with a kel-tec 380 but in a full size I wouldn't consider it over the 38Spl.

If accuracy for target shooting and such is a concern the 38 will really shine over a 380.

OP, if you can you should rent or borrow a couple samples of both calibers that you are interested in and try them out.

 

[Onmilo]

OP asked why I would choose a CZ over a Glock 25.
Simple answer is because I am not a cop and only Law Enforcement or Military can obtain a G25 in the U.S. on a Department or Defense Letterhead.
The guns cannot be imported for civilian consumption as they don't meet the number of points established in Gun Control Act of 1968 to allow importation.

G25s are also NOT supposed to be sold outside of official channels either.

Frankly I am with some of the other posters here.
In todays modern world you can buy a subcompact 9mm or .45 that will outperform any and all .38s and .380s with the sole exception of carrying a firearm on an ankle rig, that choice would be a revolver for a number of reasons but having tried that mode I would only carry an NAA mini revolver in that fashion, for a number of reasons,,,

 

[Manco]

The .38 Special is considerably more powerful than the .380, especially in a larger handgun (4" or 6" bbl). It is comparable to the 9mm Parabellum in power, NOT the .380.

38 and 9 are the same.....

Oh, I think I know what you guys mean. I was looking at "standard" ammo from the major manufacturers, which does make .38 Special and .380 ACP fairly similar in performance, at least in terms of external ballistics. But when hot ammo (even at the standard pressures of these calibers) from specialty manufacturers or handloads is considered, then .38 Special does come a lot closer to 9mm in 4" barrels, while .380 ACP is left behind. I don't use defensive ammo that is hotter than what I practice with myself, but a lot of people do, so that must be considered--got it now.

Be that as it may, however, ordinary .380 ACP solid (non-expanding) rounds can penetrate 19" or more, so aside from using more effective bullet types, I'm not sure what .38 Special's extra power gives it (since hollow-points are out). Come to think of it, even 9mm or .38 Super wouldn't offer much of an advantage without hollow-points--really just superior barrier penetration, which most people either don't care about or even actively try to avoid due to concerns over collateral damage. Buffalo Bore, for example, offers flat-nose .380 ACP rounds that should be nearly as effective as .38 Special rounds (as long as they feed reliably), and I think that the increase in available firepower (due to higher shot capacity) still tips the balance toward a .380 ACP semiautomatic since the OP is open to that option.

With 50% more bullet weight, equivalent velocity in short barrels and higher velocity in longer barrels as compared to 380, I would say that the 38Spl definitively stomps the 380 in performance.

With the level of penetration that .380 ACP gets and the unavailability of hollow-points in this case, I'm not convinced that .38 Special "stomps" .380 ACP in terminal performance, despite the difference in their external ballistics performance. It does have an edge in certain areas, but it's not anything like 50% more effective--not even slightly close, it's just a tiny difference.

OP asked why I would choose a CZ over a Glock 25.
Simple answer is because I am not a cop and only Law Enforcement or Military can obtain a G25 in the U.S. on a Department or Defense Letterhead.
The guns cannot be imported for civilian consumption as they don't meet the number of points established in Gun Control Act of 1968 to allow importation.

The original question was what would be best for the OP, who lives in Mexico, and I believe that the Glock 25 can be had in Mexico.

Frankly I am with some of the other posters here.
In todays modern world you can buy a subcompact 9mm or .45 that will outperform any and all .38s and .380s

Not without breaking Mexico's firearms laws regarding caliber.

 

[laffourcade]

1) .38super pistols are illegal; .38spl revolvers are allowed

2) Wadcutters aren´t illegal, just stupidly hard to find.

3) Yes, Glock 25 is available in Mexico, directly from the SDN (National Defence Secretary) at around $600 dlls.

4) Manco & lobo9er thanks for the tip on Imbel 1911 .380, I had no clue about this brand, I´ll look for it, seems to have 12 rounds, and I read some comments, and looks like a good quality copy of colt´s. Just seems that competing against glock 25 isn´t easy due to superior magazine capacity, lightweight polymer, and proved reliability.

 

[FC]

Hey Manco, can you tell me what happens when you hit a semi-solid object (such as a person) with a lead bullet? Now how about a copper one?

In case you are still wondering, the lead one expands.

 

[Onmilo]

Uh, I know the OP is in Mexico.
The OP asked me specifically why I wouldn't choose a Glock 25.

I answered his question to the best of my ability as to why I wouldn't choose a Glock 25 over a CZ-83 and why I chose the 9mm version of the G25 which is the G26.

In the U.S. we can have the 9mm Glock but not the .380 Glock, complete reverse of Mexico.

Since we have a broader selection of available calibers in the U.S., shooters are able to select a weapon and caliber that meets their needs and abilities with a greater degree of leeway.

Anyway, now you know why I answered the OPs question in the manner I did.

Hope that clears things up for the confused.

 

[dashootist]

Have you consider the Fed 327 Magnum? Bullet dia is only .313; should be legal, right? Best of all, you get more power than 38+P and almost the firepower of a 357 and more capacity. 6 rounds in a small revolver; 8 rounds in a Blackhawk.

 

[Hypnogator]

Have you consider the Fed 327 Magnum?

Might be legal, but how many gun shops in Mexico stock .327 Magnum revolvers or ammo?

 

[kayak-man]

Never mind.



Also, Welcome to The High Road!

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[mr.trooper]

He said that .38spc and .380 are the largest pistol rounds available, so 9mm is a no go.

Rule of the Internet # 11 - "Even your most carefully constructed argument can easily be ignored."

Since my own post is rather long, It would be stupid of me not expect 90% of posters to ignore it. At best, most of those who do read will simply be looking for snippets to misinterpret, or make a funny comment about.

Nobody reads anything. Ever... hence why a significant portion of all threads are irrelevant chatter. You would THINK posters on text based forums would READ, but many of them don't.

ON TOPIC!

IF I were in the OPs shoes, my selection would depend entirely on what kind of revolver I was considering. He said he wants something larger, because shooting pocket guns is not fun.... but he also expressed interest in possibly carry if he gets his future permits approved.

So, yes, I´m the old-time dilemma of less power, more rounds vs more power less rounds...

Not so much as you may think. Many people in this thread seem to be confused as to what standard pressure loads produce from real tube lengths. Many more seem to be confusing modern 38 defensive JHP loads with what our OP will have access to.

Standard pressure 38 special loads, like you will be limited to, are only making 200-230 foot pounds from a 4" barrel - a 110gr @ about 1,000 fps, and the 158gr @ about 800fps. Chronograph results show that it could take as many as 4 MORE inches to make that 1,000fps into 1,100fps - that's only a 50ft-lb gain from a huge 8 inch barrel, with total energy still hanging at or below 300 ft-lbs.

When you look at barrels shorter than 4", the 380 suffers much less velocity loss than the 38 - from a 4 inch to 2 inch barrel, the 380 looses about 15% of its velocity, compared to a 30% loss from a standard pressure 38.

Basically, you must have a barrel of at least 4" for a standard pressure 38 to have any power advantage over a standard size 380, such as a CZ 83 or the Glock 28, and even then it is very slight. It is NOTHING like the 100 to 150 foot pound gain of a 9mm Luger, which some posters seem to want to compare it to.

Longer barrels will help - I would guesstimate about 20-30% power gain over a 380 from a 38 with a 6 inch barrel, and about 40% more power from an 8 inch barrel.

All that said, a 4 inch 38 is a wonderful general purpose tool.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/380auto.html

 

[JFrame]

Mr. Trooper -- thank you for the depth of your analysis and thought.

I think the only point I was making early on in this thread is that, since the OP cannot count on the latest-and-greatest bone-busting velocity from whatever platform he chooses, he might be better served by the greater options in bullet configuration and weight/momentum of the heavier .38 round vis-a-vis the .380.

Certainly, he might be able to find a .380 pistol that handles wadcutters and flat-nose rounds reliably. We can say with fair certainty that any .38 special he picks up will definitely handle whatever legal round he feeds it (or reloads, if they're allowed in Mexico).

But ultimately, I am of the mind that the OP is best served by whatever he shoots the best, is the most comfortable with, and makes him happy.

In any case, this has been a fun and enlightening thread.


.

 

[hermannr]

Have you considered something like the 5.7x28? You said you would like lots of rounds that can do some damage, there is one that will. (20 rds standard and 30 rd mgs available.

Personally I have a 38 colt target revolver. It does everything I want it to. Shot placement is everything, and it is very accurate.

 

[JFrame]

Personally I have a 38 colt target revolver. It does everything I want it to. Shot placement is everything, and it is very accurate.

Amen!!!


.

 

[hirundo82]

Manco & lobo9er thanks for the tip on Imbel 1911 .380, I had no clue about this brand, I´ll look for it, seems to have 12 rounds, and I read some comments, and looks like a good quality copy of colt´s.

It doesn't surprise me that Imbel makes a good .380 1911. They're a Brazilian company, and Brazil (and many of the other Latin American countries as well) seems to have many of the same restrictions on handguns as you're dealing with--.38 caliber or less, no 9mm because of its military use, etc. If anything, Brazil's gun laws are even worse than Mexico's--eg any round that can penetrate soft body armor is banned, so they can't own any rifle rounds.

If you don't mind me asking, how hard is it to get a carry permit in Mexico? I was under the impression that, while it is relatively simple to get permission to own a handgun in Mexico, carry permits are virtually impossible to obtain.

 

[David E]

Are loads like the Corbon Pow-r-Ball and the Hornady Critical Defense allowed?

They're not hollowpoint, per se........

Also, do you reload ?

 

[David E]

A quick google search shows that .38 Super, etc, are NOT allowed.

Upon further reflection and following a perusal of the Mexican gun laws, tho I have a penchant for .38 revolvers, given the OP's situation, I'd go with a Glock 25.

If a precisely fitted revolver, like a S&W Model 12 with 4" barrel, ever had a part break, then what? I've not heard of too many custom gunsmiths in Mexico, so where would you get it repaired? If you can get the required part, do you know how to properly fit it? If so, do you have the tools to do it right?

A Glock, on the other hand, you can literally fix yourself in minutes while sitting on a flat rock.

 

[NG VI]

If you can get a Glock 25 or 28, and you cant get anything more powerfull than a .38/.380 I dont really see a point to this thread

Personally I would go the 28 route, since Mexico is hot and the 27 is the best carry pistol I ever owned. I think the Glock subcompacts shoot disproportionately well for their size, yes they are small but it isn't like shooting a pocket pistol at all, I shot the 27 better than the 23. Or go with the 25, whatever fits, you're the one who will be figuring out a comfortable way to carry it without showing it off down there.

A .38 will give you a little more juice than a .380, sure, but it's slower to reload them and your reloads are much bulkier, they have the worst bulk that an entire revolver gives you. Also you already have one and are clearly looking for something different, so why suggest something you've got and aren't looking to duplicate?

And on top of all that, I don't know what region you're from but the northern what, almost half of your country is in a turmoil no one wants to see. It's the only place in North America where there actually is a realistic chance you might get innocently involved in a gunfight with multiple opponents, so why short yourself on rounds and reloads over a pretty small performance difference between calibers?

 

[NG VI]

Standard pressure 38 special loads, like you will be limited to, are only making 200-230 foot pounds from a 4" barrel - a 110gr @ about 1,000 fps, and the 158gr @ about 800fps. Chronograph results show that it could take as many as 4 MORE inches to make that 1,000fps into 1,100fps - that's only a 50ft-lb gain from a huge 8 inch barrel, with total energy still hanging at or below 300 ft-lbs.

Which is why I always chuckle when I read about how a .357 Magnum from a short barrel, usually they claim just about anything less than 4", isn't any better than a .38. Yeah, a .38 from a silhouette gun with hot 158 grain loads, anything else and it'll always beat the .38.

A Glock, on the other hand, you can literally fix yourself in minutes while sitting on a flat rock.

I forgot about how nice a bonus that is, the Glocks are by far the easiest to detail strip and replace parts on of any pistol or revolver I've used. Take five minutes and completely replace all the parts in the frame, another five and replace the whole striker and sleeve assembly.

Have you considered something like the 5.7x28?

Prolly runs afoul of the no military rounds rule, and also the press and apparently Mexican law enforcement HATE the Five-seveN with a passion. I always see it whenever there's one of those awful news pieces on how horrible the U.S. is to let a gun or two leak across our otherwise impenetrable border.

 

[Manco]

Hey Manco, can you tell me what happens when you hit a semi-solid object (such as a person) with a lead bullet? Now how about a copper one?

In case you are still wondering, the lead one expands.

How much expansion of solid bullets do you think will occur with standard-pressure .38 Special? Not an appreciable amount even with the softest lead, in my opinion, and I don't think that any minor advantage of .38 Special trumps more than twice the capacity for those who have no other reason or desire to choose a revolver specifically. Under many other circumstances, such as requiring a pocket pistol, then alright, but with full-size guns, limited caliber selection, no hollow-points, and no other preferences, I say go with capacity.

 

[laffourcade]

hirundo82, it's almost impossible to get a carry permit in México. Basically anyone is allowed to ask for the permit, but the national defense secretary has no obligation to give it or even give you an explanaiton. But, I´m establishing a private security company, and I already have the approval of my state's government. I'll tell you the outcome.

Ng VI, Luckily I live in the central-southern part of méxico, where drug-related violence is nearly non-existent, but my city has nearly 2 million people, and there's average normal crime rates.

Oh I believe I didn´t mention that we're only allowed to regiter 1 (yes, one) handgun, and up to 9 long guns. That's why I'm making a deep research, otherwise I would get an 8" .38 revolver and the glock 25.

As for .357sig and 5.7 x 28mm handguns, it was possible to register them, but then the federal registration bureau banned those calibers for civilians.

Yes, ammo re-loading is legal, but very few people do it... it may be a good idea for me to learn how to do it...

Thanks everyone for all your comments, & taking so much time answering me, it seems its a good exercise for you to think what would you do in my shoes. I've seen very good arguments that I hadn´t thought off.

 

[george29]

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38specialor380acp.htm

If I was forced to choose between one handgun and it was a 5/6 shot .38 or a 13 shot .380, I would go with a CZ83. At SD (self defense) ranges of up to 21 feet, I'm not convinced the 5/6 shots will prove a better option especially if dealing with 2-3 perps. I read yesterday someone who posted a phrase that Quantity has it's own Quality.

If all I could buy is a Glock .380 or a 6 shooter in .38 for pure SD, it would sadly be the Glock.

Good luck

 

[eqlzr]

I once observed a very interesting phenomenon. I was out in the middle of no place and had my Rossi Stainless Model 88 snubby with me loaded with standard factory .38 spl 148 gr target wadcutter loads (probably Winchester), and my old AMT .380 backup loaded with the standard Winchester Silvertip HP ammo (I forget the bullet weight). Anyway, I fired several shots from the .38 spl at a scrap piece of heavy duty corregated sheet metal from about 10 yards. All the .38 rounds put a healthy dent in the sheet metal but none penetrated it. Then standing in the same exact spot I fired several rounds from the .380. Every single one of them blasted a hole completely through the sheet metal.

 

[03Shadowbob]

I'd take a 158gr 38 spl over a 90 gr 380 any day.

 

[dodo bird]

Can't believe no one has mentioned the Baretta Cheetah!!!!