38SPL Roll VS Taper Crimp

[jell-dog]

38SPL Roll VS Taper Crimp

CAUTION: The following thread includes posts of loading data tested in my guns chambered for this cartridge.
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

This being said, NONE of these loads are compressed.

All loads at their respective COL's had (to me) a mild/moderate felt recoil. YMMV

Here are the guidelines I will be using: 10 yards, sitting, open sights, MTM pistol rest, target has 1/2" grid lines and 1" bullseye, 7 rounds for each bullet data.
I will be shooting with a S&W Model 686-5+, 4" barrel for all range work.

ALSO, as suggested by THR member ljnowell, I decided to run data comparing Roll Crimp and Taper Crimp:

If I could make a suggestion it would be to try loading some with no crimp. Seat the bullet to the point of the crimp groove just slightly below the case mouth and just straighten out the case flare. Almost like you would taper crimp a 45 acp.
In my quest for the ultimate bullseye load in 38 special I found this to provide the best accuracy with both DEWC and LSWC.
I've also noticed that many other precision pistol shooters are doing the same thing. The load levels are such that a roll crimp simply isn't necessary.
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Please note that I decided to try Taper crimp on all the differnt bullets (not just the DEWC or L-SWC) I am using, some with good results, some not so good.

The bullets I will be using are:
X-TREME 158gr PLATED SWC (I will abbreviate to X-T P-SWC)
BERRYS 148gr PLATED HBWC (I will abbreviate Berry P-HBWC)
BERRYS 148gr PLATED DEWC (I will abbreviate Berry P-DEWC)
FRONTIER 125gr PLATED FLAT POINT (I will abbreviate to Front P-FP)
MBC 148gr COATED DEWC (I will abbreviate to MBC C-DEWC) (THANK YOU vaalpens!!)
MBC 158gr COATED SWC (I will abbreviate to MBC C-SWC) (THANK YOU Dudedog!!)
MBC 140gr COATED ZINGER (I will abbreviate to MBC ZINGER) (THANK YOU Dudedog!!)
MBC 158gr LEAD SWC (I will abbreviate to MBC L-SWC) (THANK YOU Dudedog!!)
OREGON TRAIL 158gr LEAD SWC (I will abbreviate to O-T L-SWC) (THANK YOU edleit!!)

So, here are my results:
(LEFT)Load# 16-04-001D, X-TREME 158gr PLATED SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.5gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= Lite Roll Crimp @ Cannalure
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-001E, X-TREME 158gr PLATED SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.5gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= Taper Crimp SLIGHTLY above Cannalure



(LEFT)Load# 16-04-002C, BERRYS 148gr PLATED HBWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.4gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= Lite Roll Crimp with bullet 0.125" above case mouth
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-002E, BERRYS 148gr PLATED HBWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.4gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= Taper Crimp with bullet 0.125" above case mouth



(LEFT)Load# 16-04-003D, BERRYS 148gr PLATED DEWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.6gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= Lite Roll Crimp with bullet 0.125" above case mouth
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-003E, BERRYS 148gr PLATED DEWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.6gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= Taper Crimp with bullet 0.125" above case mouth



(LEFT)Load# 16-04-004D, FRONTIER 125gr PLATED FLAT POINT, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.7gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= 1.240", Lite Roll Crimp
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-004E, FRONTIER 125gr PLATED FLAT POINT, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.7gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, COL= 1.240", Taper Crimp



(LEFT)Load# 16-04-005C, MBC 148gr COATED DEWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.4gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Lite Roll Crimp @ Crimp Groove
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-005E, MBC 148gr COATED DEWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.4gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Taper Crimp SLIGHTLY above Crimp Groove



(LEFT)Load# 16-04-006D, MBC 158gr COATED SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.7gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Lite Roll Crimp @ Crimp Groove
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-006E, MBC 158gr COATED SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.7gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Taper Crimp SLIGHTLY above Crimp Groove



(LEFT)Load# 16-04-007C, MBC 140gr COATED ZINGER, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.6gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Lite Roll Crimp @ Crimp Groove
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-007E, MBC 140gr COATED ZINGER, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.6gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Taper Crimp SLIGHTLY above Crimp Groove


(LEFT)Load# 16-04-008C, MBC 158gr LEAD SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.3gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Lite Roll Crimp @ Crimp Groove
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-008E, MBC 158gr LEAD SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.3gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Taper Crimp SLIGHTLY above Crimp Groove
View attachment 745520

(LEFT)Load# 16-04-009C, ORIGON TRAIL 158gr LEAD SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.3gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Lite Roll Crimp @ Crimp Groove
(RIGHT)Load# 16-04-009E, ORIGON TRAIL 158gr LEAD SWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.3gr, WSP Primers, Federal Brass, Taper Crimp SLIGHTLY above Crimp Groove
View attachment 745521

A big THANK YOU to the THR members Dudedog, ljnowell and vaalpens for suppling data or bullets for this test

Hope you enjoy this thread as much as I enjoy putting it together!

As you can see, I need to develop some of these loads more while a few show VERY good accuracy.

I feel the MBC 148gr COATED DEWC, BULLSEYE POWDER @ 3.4gr, WSP Primers load would perform better at 2.9gr to 3.1gr BULLSEYE.

The MBC 158gr LEAD SWC and OREGON TRAIL LASER CAST 158gr LEAD SWC showed no leading at 3.3gr BULLSEYE in my revolver.

As always, all comments are greatly appreciated
JD

 

[ljnowell]

It's amazing the difference, isn't it? Different powders and bullets will certainly behave differently. I pretty much only load 158 LSWC and 148 HBWC or DEWC. With those bullets and AA#2 I've always found better groupings with a taper crimp.

Looks like you have even more work to do now!

 

[styles]

It's amazing the difference, isn't it? Different powders and bullets will certainly behave differently. I pretty much only load 158 LSWC and 148 HBWC or DEWC. With those bullets and AA#2 I've always found better groupings with a taper crimp.

Looks like you have even more work to do now!

I just came back from the range and came on here to ask you, lj, and others the same question.

I have noticed my light loads with AA#2 (3.2 grains) and 158 LSWCS are throwing a touch high and inconsistent. I use a pretty good .003 roll crip and I really thought it was just me and my lack of shooting the last 15 years as regularly as I have been the last three months or so. I'm shooting a couple 642s which is not the easiest for the rusty-shooter.

I loaded some 158 grain LSWC-HPs at 3.75, 4.0, and 4.25 grains with the same crimp. The 4.25 grains were hyper-accurate. I thought I had a squib round, but it was a pure double-hole. I remembered you use a taper-crimp on your ~3 gr AA#2 rounds and immediately thought I am over roll crimping the lighter loads.

 

[ljnowell]

I just came back from the range and came on here to ask you, lj, and others the same question.

I have noticed my light loads with AA#2 (3.2 grains) and 158 LSWCS are throwing a touch high and inconsistent. I use a pretty good .003 roll crip and I really thought it was just me and my lack of shooting the last 15 years as regularly as I have been the last three months or so. I'm shooting a couple 642s which is not the easiest for the rusty-shooter.

I loaded some 158 grain LSWC-HPs at 3.75, 4.0, and 4.25 grains with the same crimp. The 4.25 grains were hyper-accurate. I thought I had a squib round, but it was a pure double-hole. I remembered you use a taper-crimp on your ~3 gr AA#2 rounds and immediately thought I am over roll crimping the lighter loads.

With a 158 SWC you are a little light on the load, IMO. I know someone else who loads them at 3.2 but I've found 3.5 grains to be the sweet spot for me. I load half of the forward driving band into the case and lightly taper crimp.

 

[vaalpens]

jell-dog,

Thanks for the comparison crimping loads. You know that you now just made it more difficult for by adding another variable to my reloading.:banghead:

Especially a big thanks for the work you have done on the MBC DEWC bullets. It seems that the MBC bullets might prefer a light roll crimp, except for the 140gr Zinger which prefers the tapered crimp. Have you loaded the 140gr Zinger with 3.5gr and a light roll crimp? It seems that you seating depth was different between the roll crimp load and tapered crimp load. Not sure if it would make a difference.

So far my best grouping for the MBC C-DEWC was using 3.0gr Bullseye with a light roll crimp. The grouping was 1.01" from 10 yards.

 

[jell-dog]

jell-dog,

Thanks for the comparison crimping loads. You know that you now just made it more difficult for by adding another variable to my reloading.:banghead:

Especially a big thanks for the work you have done on the MBC DEWC bullets. It seems that the MBC bullets might prefer a light roll crimp, except for the 140gr Zinger which prefers the tapered crimp. Have you loaded the 140gr Zinger with 3.5gr and a light roll crimp? It seems that you seating depth was different between the roll crimp load and tapered crimp load. Not sure if it would make a difference.

So far my best grouping for the MBC C-DEWC was using 3.0gr Bullseye with a light roll crimp. The grouping was 1.01" from 10 yards.

vaalpens,
Thank you for your generous comments

Have you loaded the 140gr Zinger with 3.5gr and a light roll crimp?

No, I haven't worked up a 3.5gr load with the Zinger, but it's in the works as are a few others.

Your grouping for the MBC C-DEWC using 3.0gr Bullseye with a light roll crimp (1.01" from 10 yards) looks great!

Also, thank you for your work on the PIF bullets:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=802127
Great thread and clear results!!

JD

 

[Coldfinger]

Thank you for this. I am to receive a S&W model 10 around the end of June (inherited). I am saving up all the 38 SPC brass I can right now (600 cases). I've never reloaded for a wheel gun. This has been great data for me. I hope to locate you in THR for the many questions I'm sure I will have.

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[Coldfinger]

Have you ever used Blue Dot for 38 SPC? If so, how did it perform compared to other powders in this cartridge? I ask this question because Lyman 49 has Blue Dot working in everything I reload pistol wise. Maybe not the preferred powder in all but...

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[jell-dog]

Have you ever used Blue Dot for 38 SPC? If so, how did it perform compared to other powders in this cartridge? I ask this question because Lyman 49 has Blue Dot working in everything I reload pistol wise. Maybe not the preferred powder in all but...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

I'm glad that this thread will be helpful to you!
I haven't used Blue Dot, but hopefully another member will share their experiences with it.

JD

 

[gonoles_1980]

Am I reading the charts right, it looks like the best shooting was with the roll crimp, LSWC 158 gr bullets, 3.3 bullseye.

Next best was the one above it using the Missouri vs Oregon Trail bullets.

My quick observation is the lead bullets shoot better with the roll and the plated shoot better with the tapered using the 158gr bullets, which is the way I do it on my 357. It appears the opposite with the lighter bullets.

I use 3.5 bullseye with my 158gr LSWC, never get a grouping like that, though I have a 1.8" barrel, not 4" and I'm shooting at 15 ft, not 30ft. I could group my 44 mag like that at 30ft. It'd be interesting to see the same test with a snubbie.

 

[vaalpens]

38SPL Roll VS Taper Crimp

The MBC 158gr LEAD SWC and OREGON TRAIL LASER CAST 158gr LEAD SWC showed no leading at 3.3gr BULLSEYE in my revolver.

jell-dog, what is the hardness of the MBC and OREGON TRAIL lead (non coated) bullets?

 

[jell-dog]

jell-dog, what is the hardness of the MBC and OREGON TRAIL lead (non coated) bullets?

The MBC site says 18bnh for both the coated and non-coated 158gr swc, while I could not find a hardness on Oregon Trail site for their bullets.
I recieved the OREGON TRAIL Laser Cut 158gr LEAD SWC from a PIF that edleit sent.
Hope this helps!
JD

 

[vaalpens]

The MBC site says 18bnh for both the coated and non-coated 158gr swc, while I could not find a hardness on Oregon Trail site for their bullets.
I recieved the OREGON TRAIL Laser Cut 158gr LEAD SWC from a PIF that edleit sent.
Hope this helps!
JD

I see MBC has the .38 Match 158gr SWC at 12Brinell and the .357 Action 158gr SWC at 18 Brinell.

I was just wondering if the hardness makes a difference at the lower speed using just 3.3gr of Bullseye.

 

[jell-dog]

I see MBC has the .38 Match 158gr SWC at 12Brinell and the .357 Action 158gr SWC at 18 Brinell.

I was just wondering if the hardness makes a difference at the lower speed using just 3.3gr of Bullseye.

vaalpens, the short answer is yes.
These 2 interesting thread discussions on lead bullet hardness will answer your questions better than I can
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=773618

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=563893

More threads relating to proper lead hardness and figment from THR can be found here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=har....org&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

Bullet facts from MBC:
http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

Thank you for asking this question, it has made me rethink the "harder is better" regarding lead bullet reloading!!

JD

 

[vaalpens]

jell-dog, I did some more testing with my MBC 148gr DEWC HT coated bullets with a roll-crimp load and a Lee FCD crimp, outside the crimping groove. I'm not sure if the Lee FCD does a roll or taper crimp.

These are the loads that tested the best for me at 10yards using the two different methods. So what I decided was to load up a few more, and test at least 10 rounds each at 15yards to see which one gives me the better grouping. I think 15yards is a bit of a stretch with my Ruger SP101 3" revolver with regular sights, but I just wanted to see if the results showed me anything.

Following are the loads and the results:

38spl, Ruger SP101, 3"
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, Bullseye, 2.7gr, WSP
Crimp above crimping groove. Lee FCD light crimp.

38spl, Ruger SP101, 3"
COL: 1.250"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, Bullseye, 3gr, WSP
Light roll crimp in crimping groove

I know not many reloaders like to use the Lee FCD, but I think it gives me more consistency, and the results I have seen so far indicates it is the more accurate load. This 2.7gr DEWC load is probably the load I will now work on and fine tune as much as I can.

Hopefully I did not hijack your thread, but hopefully it will add to the roll vs taper crimp topic.

 

[jell-dog]

vaalpens,
It's always good to get more data, thank you for the input!
JD

 

[mjones 59]

Thanks for all the information. I just bought a 4 die .38 cal. from
Lyman. I wanted to test the taper crimp. This morning I realized
that the taper crimp is a separate function, not while seating the
bullet. I didn't want to add an extra step in the process.
What is the max grains of bullseye with a hollow base wadcutter?
I am looking for the tightest groups with both hollow base and
double end wadcutters.

 

[1KPerDay]

IMO it depends on which HBWC you are talking about. Traditional lead HBWC are seated very deep and the max loads are quite light. Supposedly if you load them too hot the skirt can blow off and block your bore with obvious results. However berrys plated HBWC didn't respond to the traditional loads for me and I had to load them quite hot to get them to group. To the point that I won't share my load because it's well over max, using manual loads based on lead HBWC data. Others have reported similarly.

 

[jell-dog]

mjones 59,
I agree with 1kperday.
Lead hollow base wadcutter traditional load is between 2.7gr and 2.9gr Bullseye powder in 38spl, seated flush or slightly above case mouth with a slight taper crimp or roll crimp that just removes the bell.
Double End wad cutters bare lead, coated or plated OR plated hollow base wadcutters can be run at higher load levels as 1kperday mentioned.
Hope this helps!
JD

 

[styles]

I have a bit of an update on my "progress."

I made a 'custom' lee dipper by taking one of the extra .5cc dippers and making a .4cc dipper out of it. I am using this and it's working great for me. I noticed the SWCS data is a little more aggressive than the AA#2 data. I'm dead on max at 4.3 grains of SWCS where the AA#2 has a lower max at 4.0 grains.

I am seeing a density of 10.6 grains / 1cc of powder repeatable on my lee safety scale instead of the reported and oft-quoted 11.9 which seems to represent the lee data. I have tested this with several sizes of dippers from .3 - .7 and 1.0 and the lee safety scale and it is repeatable for me.

At .3cc at 11.9 you would be at 3.6 grains where at .3cc at 10.6 you are only at 3.2 grains and I find this too light with my crimp for what ever reason. I know a lot of people shoot 3.2 grains or slightly less, but most of them seem to taper crimp vs roll crimp in the groove.

I hope I'm learning something. As always, YMMV. I'm using a +p revolver and starline brass.

 

[Walkalong]

I made a 'custom' lee dipper

Here is another way. Cut a small case to dump the charge needed.