398 reloading questions

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peterk1234

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I am currently using imr4895. Started my test loads at 42 grains. So far 43.0 seems to be the sweet spot. Max load is 43.9.

Read much about how great Varget is for 308. My question is; what makes it better than imr 4895? I am finding that load development is quite time consuming (but fun) so before I go too far down the rabbit hole, should I be considering a second powder?

Also, I read that a lot of guys have favorite loads in the 41 grain range, below the recommended minimum. Should I be testing at lower levels?

And the final question. I finally have a chrono. What would be considered too slow for a 308? This is a whole new world to me because my reloading experience has been for pistol and most of my reloading has focused on comfortable loads, other than my 357 mag. Thanks Pete
 
A little hard to give you any help when you didn't post what bullet weight you're referring to. Varget is an ADI powder that is very temp stable, IMR 4895 being just a tad faster burning than Varget and is less temp stable.

Varget works well with all bullet weights, but can excel with the 175+ bullet weights.

Both are great powders for the 308 Win. One of my favorite powders for 308 and 223 is IMR 8208XBR, which also is an ADI powder just a tad faster than IMR 4895. I prefer H-4895 over IMR 4895, but the IMR version works.

As far as what is too slow, it depends what you're using your load for. If you're trying to get the 308 to stretch to 1000 yards, you want to be in the 2800 + FPS for a 155 and 2550 + for the 175's. Faster is better for that distance since you need to stay super sonic.
 
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Good point. Right now I am playing with 165 grains (hornady SST). The only reason is it seems like the most common all around bullet weight for just about anything. The gun will eventually be used for hunting. Right now though I am having fun trying to get as accurate as possible. I am limited to 135 yards, but I may join another range soon that would get me to 300. Not exactly long distance, but it's all I got to play with. Pete
 
The 7.62 cartridge was initially developed during WW2 with IMR 4895. I have found references to IMR 3031 in early cases, but IMR 4895 was shorter than the lincoln logs of period IMR 3031. IMR 3031 is currently a short cut powder, a little faster than IMR 4895, and it is a great 308 Win powder.

There are three 4895's, that is IMR4895/H4895/AA2495. These are so close in charge versus velocity to be indistinguishable over a chronograph. Accurate Arms told me their AA2495 followed the same pressure curve as IMR 4895. Hodgdon 4895 when it was initially brought out, was a copy of IMR 4895, but over time they have tweaked it, supposedly it is an extreme powder, but I can't see what they are advertising over a chronograph and if there is too much powder in the case, primers get blown, just like regular 4895.

Incidentally, AA2520 is a ball powder and Accurate Arms told me they blended it to the IMR 4895 pressure curve. When it was the soup du jour, it became very popular with the NRA across the course service rifle crowd. Back then, that meant the M1a/M14. Of course it shot well, was dirtier than the stick powders. The gas system was always filthy after a match with AA2520. The primary selling point was better metering. This is one of those things that fits the world view of shooters. That is, they believe that if it throws better, it must be more accurate. This is not necessarily true, IMR 4895 throws for me, plus or minus a half grain. IMR 4350 throws plus or minus one and a half grains. I will weight out 4350 charges, but I have shot lots of cleans with thrown 4895, or AA2495, as shown in these targets:

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Humans see patterns all the time that don't exist. I have chronographed a couple of ball powders, rifle and pistol, and just because they throw better, does not result in tighter extreme spreads and standard deviations over the chronograph. An example of this human bias, there are those who measure rim thickness in 22lr and claim miraculous accuracy improvements. Eley, at the Smallbore National Championships, said this was all bunkum, and put up a chart showing over 100 measurements they make and control on match 22lr. The equipment seller picks one, one easy thing to measure, sells the equipment, hypes up their snake oil through articles and shills. It is all nonsense and the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy. The rim thickness guys are not shooting enough ammunition to make their case, though they make a good sales pitch. Snake Oil salesman sell hope, and something that fits the world view of their buyers. None of the National Champions I know or asked, measure rim thickness. They decide what is good ammunition based on the groups they shoot.

Not a single one of these rounds was checked with a rim gage.

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In so far as IMR 4895, it has a wide sweet spot. I used the 39 grains load standing and sitting rapid fire at 200 yards. It shot well, those are 20 round groups I posted. Those were thrown groups. I threw ten charges and when the average was close to 39 grains, I was ready to dump the charges and seat the bullets on my Dillion 550B. I only weighed long range ammunition because I was worried about blowing primers. IMR 4895 was the powder used in the National Match ammunition. Top target is a 30-06, the lower, 7.62mm, and the propellant for both was IMR 4895. The bullet was the limiting factor, in my opinion. The old 174 FMJBT is accurate, but not as accurate as the 168 SMK's which replaced it. The propellant stayed IMR 4895 after the bullet change in National Match ammunition. Neither of these loads are magnums, the 7.62 load could have been bumped up, but the most accurate groups in AMU testing at 600 yards were at 2550 fps. Also, for the Garand and the M14, the gas system has to be taken into account.

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Varget is an excellent 308 powder. The primary reason Varget has displaced IMR 4895/IMR 4064 in F Class shooting is that shooters can get higher velocities before blowing primers. These guys are pushing 185 grain Bergers and 200 gr Bergers so fast they are eating 308 barrels up in a couple of thousand rounds. I used to be able to take a 308 barrel 4000+ rounds, but half my shots were with 39 grains load, one quarter were with 40.5 to 41.5 grains IMR 4895, and only my 600 yard loads were pushing it. I still think IMR 4895 is the "standard" in the 308 Win, and what you can do is say, X powder throws better than IMR 4895, Y powder is a bit faster, maybe in time Varget will be the new standard, don't know. It is an excellent powder in the 308 Win over all bullet weights.

When it comes to powders, and what is the best powder, just what are the differences between powders?. Outside of the obvious physical differences, ball/stick, short cut/long cut, just what do you know about the burn rate characteristics?

What you know is some burn rate chart, which is about as useful as measuring to the ten thousandth's with a yard stick. The ranking is quite mysterious, but given within a class, lets say something I am familiar with IMR 4895. Or 4350. Specifically what are the differences in the pressure curve between IMR 4895/H4895/AA2495/AA2520? Or IMR4350/H4350/AA4350/short cut 4350? What is the difference between Titegroup and Bullseye? What do you know outside of what industry tells you? What if the pressures curves (on average) were within 5%, or 3%,or 1%, or 1/2%, if all the different brands within a class have pressure curve differences less than 3% different from each other, is that difference significant. Significant enough for all the hoopa about that powder? Or proof that one powder is vastly better than another with a 3% pressure curve difference? I think there are well over 100 powders in the burn rate chart, and I am getting to believe the greatest difference (in classes, whatever that might be) is mostly advertising. Blaring labels and in print articles with three shot groups and a lot of hype. We really don't have the information to allow us to make good judgements. We have advertising in the print media, anecdotal information and our own limited experiences. Most of which is inconsistent, confounding, and contradictory. And that is as industry wants. It is as Noam Chomsky says" the purpose of advertising is to create ill informed consumers who make irrational choices.

The standard load for a M1a was a 168 SMK with 40.5 to 41.5 grains IMR 4895, LC case, and CCI #34 primer. Actually the 34 primer came after the M1a was displaced by the AR15, but the #34 primer is the military, less sensitivity primer. And it shoots very well in gas guns. The powder charge more or less depended on the the tightness of the throat and barrel. As the throat moved, you bumped up your charges. These were not meant to be magnum loads. The rifle would malfunction is over gassed. Shooters wanted accurate, perfectly reliable ammunition. Today, the mantra is more means more, so more velocity means more. Actually, if your wind call is off, more velocity will not move the bullet into the middle of the X ring. Going to a higher ballistic bullet is far better than adding more powder to the case at reducing wind drift at distance.
 
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@Slamfire thank you for all that. It is interesting that you found that 41.5 grains was really starting to push the limits for you. Hogdon's starting load for a 165 gr bullet is 42.7 gr. This is what originally prompted my question. That is why I started at 42.0 gr and worked up from there. Once I got to 43.6 gr I could physically feel much more recoil. Not as much as the factory rounds I originally tried out of the bolt gun, but pretty close. I did not see any obvious pressure signs, but I would not call me well versed in the subject. That is what prompted me to start reading about what are reloader's happy loads. The consensus appear to be in line with your favorite loads.

I have a lot to learn about loading for the 308. Back to the drawing board. While 43 grains were shooting well, I wonder if I can get as good, if not better results starting off at 39 gr and then working my way up. I have pushed my COAL to 2.830, which so far was much better than my starting COAL that was around 2.770 (I just matched the factory load). I know I have to get my shots through a chrono at some point as well, since velocity and consistency of that velocity is part of the equation.

One more question. What is considered an acceptable velocity for 308, or what may be considered too slow? Let's assume hunting purposes out to 400 yards max would be the ultimate use. Thanks Pete
 
@Slamfire thank you for all that. It is interesting that you found that 41.5 grains was really starting to push the limits for you. Hogdon's starting load for a 165 gr bullet is 42.7 gr. This is what originally prompted my question. That is why I started at 42.0 gr and worked up from there. Once I got to 43.6 gr I could physically feel much more recoil. Not as much as the factory rounds I originally tried out of the bolt gun, but pretty close. I did not see any obvious pressure signs, but I would not call me well versed in the subject. That is what prompted me to start reading about what are reloader's happy loads. The consensus appear to be in line with your favorite loads.

The more I have shot downrange, the more I cut my loads. Loads that shot great, no problems on the bench, same gun, different day, at a match, blown primers. Why this happens, heck if I know. Really messes up with your score, fishing for primers. But, if you ever blow or pierce primers, cut your loads. For the 223 I cut 1/2 grain, for the 308 Win, might cut 1 grain. And I kept on cutting till the primers stayed in. Also, I am using 308 Lake City cases, which tend to be around 175 grains in weight. Some Federal cases I had, they were down to 155 grains. And then later Federal Gold Medal Match, back up to 175 grs. Just because the head stamp is the same does not mean the case is the same. All the manufacturer's can make a change any time for any reason, and we are not on their change notices email distribution list.

I have a lot to learn about loading for the 308.

Don't we all, but the 308 Win is easy to reload accurate ammunition. It is a great round.

While 43 grains were shooting well, I wonder if I can get as good, if not better results starting off at 39 gr and then working my way up. I have pushed my COAL to 2.830, which so far was much better than my starting COAL that was around 2.770 (I just matched the factory load). I know I have to get my shots through a chrono at some point as well, since velocity and consistency of that velocity is part of the equation.

I generally seated my bullets to 2.800", just a hair off the lands. I do recommend chronographs, you see things that you won't see without a chronograph. There is no such thing as a free lunch. If your velocities are high, pressures are high. My Krieger barreled rifles, I have to cut, cut, my loads or I experience blown primers. I went from 24 grains N140 to 21.5 grains N140 with a 69 SMK, in a Kreiger barreled 223 Rem. That barrel was tight, velocities were high, and I blew primers till I reduced the load, and then I was not. Wilson barrels which are broach cut, I could go back to 24.0 grains.

One more question. What is considered an acceptable velocity for 308, or what may be considered too slow? Let's assume hunting purposes out to 400 yards max would be the ultimate use. Thanks Pete

That is a loaded question. For target shooting, the acceptable velocity is that which the bullet does not bounce off the target and produces infinitesimally small groups. In my opinion, for hunting, the ethical velocity is the lowest velocity the bullet expands. Which, if I recall right, is just about 1800 fps. If the bullet does not expand than all you are doing is punching a hole with a FMJ equivalent, and the animal is most likely to suffer an agonizing death. Increasing suffering of a helpless animal, just to show off that you can hit it at distance, is most self centered, unemphatic, and unethical in my opinion. You can run the numbers, I have not, but about 400 yards is the typical limit for bullet expansion for non magnum calibers. And then, you have to take into account, your ability to keep all shots within an eight inch circle at range. Eight inches is about the lethal zone for everything. Planting a bullet in the butt of an animal, having it run off for miles, only to be eaten alive, lets say, by coyotes, or bleed out in pain, just increases the animal's suffering. So, I believe ethical hunting distances are bounded by bullet expansion and shot placement ability. And if eight inches means two hundred yards, then as Dirty Harry said




Having shot hundreds of times at 600 yards, and less than a hundred at 1000 yards, I am very skeptical of 600 yard game shooting and have a very low opinion of the 1000 yard hunters. It is clear they don't care about animal suffering, it is just one big real life arcade game. Two thousand years ago they would have been in the Colosseum stands mocking those about to die a horrible death.
 
....deleted a bunch of my own verbose inanity...
pay attention to slamfire, and you really can't go wrong.
In my own experience, 4895 or 3031 work great in gas guns, firing 147-180 gr, but I lean more towards 4895, or 2495...they are essentially the same.
But in my only locked action 308 (winchester mdl 88), I found it likes the 3031 a wee bit better, for whatever reason. (I should include my coffee intake with my accuracy notes)
 
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Slamfire is definately worth listening to. Think of the .308 hunting wise as a 1/2 ton pickup. You can feed it regular gas, cheap oil, cheap tires, beat the snot out of it and it will still get you where you want to go, but it won't go zero to 60 in 3.6 seconds and won't float down the highway like a vintage Caddy. Basically it works "well" over a wide range of combinations of components, but a hot-rod it is not. Powders that work well range from IMR/H 4895, 4064, R15, VN140, Varget, among others in the extruded category. W748 and BL-C2 are 2 favorites that come to mind in the spherical category. Any of these will likely produce accurate, effective loads from 125-180 grain bullets, I wouldn't presume any to be superior to the other unless MY rifle proved otherwise. Your rifle may not like 4895. It may not like Varget. It may love them both, only testing will tell.

As for velocity, I've personally been stepping the .308 down to .300 Savage speeds for several years now. Last time I chrono'd it, was in the 2580-2600 range, but I've since switched brands of brass so who knows. Recoil and POI didn't change, so likely about the same. It is easy for my wife to shoot, easy on brass, and still hammers deer with authority. With a standard soft point 150 (she shoots the Speer Hot Core) I would not hesitate to shoot deer to 300 yards at this speed (I have, with a .300 Savage). If I wanted to push it farther, I would use a different caliber and/or a higher BC bullet, hence my open country rifle is a .280 Rem. Within the .308 envelope, on whitetail deer, I would be comfortable pushing a high BC bullet of 165-168 grains at maximum velocity to 400 yards in ideal conditions if the cold barrel shots I could fire under field conditions justified it.
 
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Last time I chrono'd it, was in the 2580-2600 range, but I've since switched brands of brass so who knows. Recoil and POI didn't change, so likely about the same.


It has been so long, that the shooting communities mind has been wiped clean of the knowledge, but the 30-40 Krag tossed a 220 grain bullet at 2200 fps and was considered by users to be an outstanding round on game. Undoubtedly the bullets were designed to expand, and from the period literature, they expanded and penetrated very predictably. Then the distances were far less than the 1K group claims and most shooters were using irons and not tossing shots much beyond 200 yards.

I have hunted, but mainly I am a paper puncher. One bud who is always out in the woods, had poor experiences with behind the shoulder shots with his 308 Win. The distances had to be less than 50 yards for most shots. The SST's he was using would not expand, the deer would run off, and at dusk, he could not track them. He would find the eaten deer (coyotes) 200 yards away the next morning. However, once he changed his aimpoint to between the shoulder and the neck, the deer would drop in their tracks. There was enough meat and bone to upset the bullet, and, lots of veins and arteries going up to the brain and back.

Those old blackpower rounds made big holes. Guys I know who have used 58 caliber muskets claim if the Minie hits bone, the animal will tumble.

Ballistic gelatine tests of the M 1867/77 Werndl rifle



Lorenz bullet vs .58 Minié test in ballistic gelatine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PifleEwbeko



Round ball vs cut lead - gelatine tests, accuracy, ballistics, historical background



19th century roundball vs 7,62x39 ammo in ballistic gelatine




Shooting the Swiss Model 1851 Feldstutzer rifle



And I ask, why don't we see wound channel information on each and every hunting bullet on the market? We ought to see the damage each and every hunting bullet makes based on the claims we read in periodicals. If the bullet is touted as a 1500 yard bullet, then what is the expansion, penetration and wound channel at the velocity the bullet reaches at 1500 yards?

Instead what we read is expansion in milk jugs at 15 or 25 yards. Totally invalid for the long ranges claimed for cartridges.

 
Personally, as far as bullets that start with a 3... I start with IMR4895, and either go up to IMR4064 or down to IMR3031. If I can't get it done with those, I'm doing something wrong.

I've also found... in the .308 particularly... chasing velocity is not a recipe to success, work up to and find a charge for accuracy at the ranges you intent to shoot it at, everything else will fall into place.
 
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