40-65 or 405W in 1885 highwall?

[andym79]

Hi guys I am hoping that someone on here has experience with these cartridges using cast bullets. I have always fancied the unusual cartridges, for a while now I have wanted an 1885, but not in standard chambering.

Does anyone have one of the Uberti (Cimarron) 1885 highwalls? Are they well made?

I am now faced with a dilema, if I am to get one should it be in 40-65 or 405!

Secondly in a single shot rifle which cartridge do you think has more potential accuracy, the 40-65 or 405W?

I have seen load data for 280-415 grainers in the 405 and 300 and 400 in the 40-65.

I am not too wise on the ballistics of either. I know the 40-65 was a successful black powder cartridge and the 405W was the famous lion medicine gun!

I assume reloading the 40-65 would be easier as if 40-65 brass isn't available then you can just resize 45-70 brass.

Any help on if the Uberti is a reasonable be any the pros and con of each cartridge would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks

 

[eastbank]

i have and load for quite a few oldies, the only .40 cal i own and shoot is a 40-82 in a lever action win 1886 made in 1892. and to shot these oldies is a labor of love for me(with a little work). i would choose the 40-65 as you know 45-70 are very easy to get and reform into 40-65. 405 cases are not hard to get, but you will have find a supply and not every store carries them. i think any new high wall or rolling block repo rifle will do when loaded with in reason. if you are going to shoot realy big game the 405 would have the edge over the 40-65, but any large jacketed or cast lead bullet will get the job done. our american bison (buffalo) weighted up to 1800-2000 lbs and were desimated with large lead bullets at modest(slow) speeds. i sure would want to get into casting my own lead bullets as it will be a lot cheaper. please keep us posted on your road into the past with shooting the oldies. eastbank.

 

[StrawHat]

I own a 405 WCF but not a 40-65. Cases are easily obtained and the 100 I bought have lasted at least 10 years. I have not loaded them hot and hard, preferring to keep the ballistics comparable to the 40-72. I do have a box of factory 405 WCF handy for the stray rhino or elephant that might wander into my yard.

I prefer the straight sided case so that is why I went with the 405 WCF.

Kevin

 

[Curator]

I have a 1885 Browning HighWall in .40-65. It is LOTS easier to feed than a .405 Win. particularly with cast bullets.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I sorta remember one of the black powder silhouette guys fire forming 303 British brass for his 40-65 Sharps. Could be wrong tho, been over 20 years.

 

[Don McDowell]

I own rifles in both cartridges, in the higwall without a doubt I'ld give the nod to the 40-65. It will handle cast bullets from 300-400 grs just fine, and the moulds are readily available. Properly head stamped brass is readily available, and it is just a matter of running 45-70 brass thru a 40-65 size die if you don't have access to the Starline brass.
The 405 if wearing the proper barrel twist is supposed to be chucking 300 gr jacketed bullets in excess of 2000 fps. While it can be made to shoot cast bullets alright, it's .412 bore diameter is a bit more of a problem getting a properly sized cast bullet. Brass is available from Jamison and Hornady, and unless you bugger one up in the reloading process, case life is very good.
The 40-65 also has the advantage if at some point you decide to shoot bpcr sillouette, as it is an approved cartridge. The 405 is not an approved cartridge as it was never a blackpowder loaded round.

 

[eastbank]

twist should be 1-14,1-16 in the 40-65. my 40-82 shoots 260gr jackets very well, but i don,t shoot many and rely on 320gr cast lead-406. dia. eastbank.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have a Browning BPCR .40-65 that is a very fine silhouette and midrange rifle with 400 gr Snovers or 420 gr Money bullets and Swiss 1 1/2 Fg powder.

I have no experience with .405 Win. I cannot find the specs on Cimarron's Uberti made barrels.
There are people using .405 Win brass with cast bullets and black powder in .40-70 Sharps Straight and .40-72 Winchester rifles with the chamber dimensions tweaked for the modern brass. Sounds like a lot of trouble to me.

Note that you can get a C. Sharps 1875 for under $1500 which is of undoubted quality and Made in USA.

 

[highlander 5]

I have a rebarreled Browning 1885 in 40/65 and have found it to be very accurate,best group I've shot was under an inch at 100 yards with a 350 gr cast bullet. Brass can be had from Starline. Don't know much about the 405 other than Teddy Roosevelt though very highly of it.
Nice thing about the 40/65 is it recoil is quite manageable .

 

[Sunray]

Starline is making .40-65 brass. Not horribly expensive at $169.50 per 250. Problem is the .406" bullet. Not completely impossible to find though.
.405 brass is more expensive but you can't make it out of .45-70. The .405 is about 400 thou longer.

 

[Jim Watson]

Problem is the .406" bullet.

Strange, MY .40-65 has a .408" Badger barrel but a large throat so it shoots better with .411" or at least .410" bullets.

There is no "problem" with bullets of any diameter any more, you can buy moulds or bullets to suit.

 

[highlander 5]

My rifle is .408 and I size to .410.

 

[Don McDowell]

Can't make 405 brass from 45-70, Closest would be 30-40 krag, but the rim is to thin and the cases will come out short when blown out to 40. Does make a good way to get 40-70 st brass , unless the 40-70 chamber is one of the new designs based off of a cut down 405 case.
.406 was the original bore diameter, altho many folks with original rifles report that they too can use .408 -.410 bullets like those of us with modern 40-65 barrels.

 

[eastbank]

if i use any bullets larger than .407 in my win 40-82 it very hard to chamber the loaded shell and one of my 44-40,s does the same with bullets larger than .427. i think thoses two rifles have tighter than normal chamber necks. what i do is take the expander plug stem out of the size die and lube the loaded shells neck and resize the neck on till the shell fits the chamber. it does not seem to affect accurcy. eastbank.

 

[Jim Watson]

While the .40-65 is a good shooting round for single shots, it is kind of a modern innovation, going back to the early days of the BPCR revival.
The original .40-65 was an "express" round with a 260 gr bullet at high BP velocity from the 1886 Winchester and competitors.

BPCR shooters increased the twist to handle a 400 gr bullet for silhouette and target shooting in heavy single shots.
This because at the time, the only period brass you could buy over the counter was .45-70, which can be necked (more like tapered) down to .40.

No ready source for .40-70 Sharps, either straight or bottleneck. The SS had to be made out of stretched .30-40 Krag and the BN needed 2.4" brass aka .45-90.

There were actually two different .40-70 bottleneck rounds wildcatted out of .45-70 brass. One had the long neck of the Sharps and a reduced body length, the other had a short neck over a full size body.

At least one shooter tried the .40-60 Maynard which he could make by blowing .30-40 Krag out straight. with no stretching or trimming.

 

[andym79]

Well I have decided to go with the 40-65, easier to get brass, designed for black should I want to.

I now need to decide which version to get. A straight stock to minimise felt recoil, but I really do want the octagonal barrel. The standard sporting or the deluxe?
The deluxe has a pistol grip and is checkered. Checkering is nice, but the pistol grip doesn't look traditional. All my levers have straight stocks, I have heard that the pistol grip is however better for slower deliberate shots and is helps with reduce felt recoil.

Are either of those statements about pistol grips true?

 

[Don McDowell]

Pistol grip is as traditional as the straight stock. The pistol grip won't reduce any felt recoil, but it may help you control the rifle a bit more than the straight stock. The crescent butt works fine for everything but shooting from prone.

 

[eastbank]

this siamese 98 was made into a 45-70 by or for navy arms, and it shoots any think i feed it. it is a bit heavy. eastbank.