.40 load check?

[JohnhenrySTL]

I'm receiving more contradicting data than I care to explain.

The load I want to confirm is .40, Rainer 180 grain H.P. I believe they are plated, not jacketed. 5.9 +-.1 of Unique. C.O.A.L 1.130.

The Lee data, found on the die instrictions tells me to go between 5.9-6.7 for a jacketed 180 grain. But for that weight, the disc they suggest is much smaller than the listed weight???

The Lyman 49th suggest 4.9 through 5.6 at a length of 1.115.

By going a bit longer I am attempting to give myself some margian. I also realize this load is for suggested jacketed bullets.

The charge of unique does appear to run consistently through my Lee disc charger.

I am looking for a medium energy round.

What do you say???

 

[Robert101]

I treat Rainer bullets as lead bullets, but I tolerate a little more velocity than lead. The Lee 2nd Edition manual shows for 180 grain lead bullets a 5.2 to 5.5 grains of Unique with 1.125 min. OAL. I mostly shoot the 165 Rainer's in 40 S&W so I don't have any first hand information to share in this regard.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Thank you. I will track down my Lee book. I'm happy I didn't get stuck with 100 of them.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

I called Rainer today, after I got through they were very helpful. The guy suggested I start at 6.3 of Unique. His data went from 6-6.7. He also suggested a length of 1.110. It was very different than anything else.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a note on the Lee discs and the charge weights. The chart provided by Lee is just a guideline, not written in stone. Rarely are they exact. You usually have to go up or down one orifice size to get class to the charge you are trying to throw. Some powder will be correct, most won't. W231 is usually right on and ball powders meter much better than Unique. Unique has been compared to Corn Flakes while W231 meters like water.

If you are looking for a better metering powder in the 40 S&W give AA#7, Power Pistol or Longshot a try although AA#7 is probably the best choice. Too bad W571/HS-7 is no longer in production. You would have really liked that powder in the 40.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

ArchAngel, thank you for the powder suggestion. I'm frustrated with the different data coming at me. Not to put you on the spot, but I'm asking you or anybody else qualified to answer my questions.

The bullets are 180 grain, plated hollow point made by Rainer.

The Lee book suggest 5.2-5.5 with a coal of 1.125.

The Lyman suggest 4.9-5.6 at 1.115.

I called Alliant they wouldn't commit on Rainer bullets.

The man at Rainer suggested 6.0-6.6 with an length 1.110.

I have made 30 rounds at 1.130 with 5.6 grains of unique. My second test batch is going to be 6.0 with a length of 1.120. I have not tested either. I'm torn who to believe.

Is it acceptable to pretty much pick one length for most loads outside of bullets with a crimping groove? Meaning, I have never had a problem, in my sig p229 at 1.125.

The load suggested by Rainer is way shorter and beefier than any of the other data. Which would you start with?

Thanks again in advance.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Plated bullets are cast bullets covered by a very thin plating. The reason why you are getting different load recommendations is you are not looking at data for plated bullets, it's rare. Most plated bullets should be loaded with cast bullet data or jackets bullet data to the middle of the charge range.

With a 180gr Speer GDHP bullet Alliant lists a max charge of 6.7gr Unique. That would make the starting charge weight 6.0gr and the max charge with a plated bullet ~6.4gr Unique. I would start with 6.0 and work up to 6.4gr and see if you find something in that narrow range that is accurate. You can do it without a problem I'm sure.

I just noticed you posted what Rainer told you. Why would you doubt what the bullet manufacturer told you? It was very close to what I suggested with slightly more powder on the upper end. You have what you need to succeed, start at 6.0gr and see what it produces...

 

[Robert101]

John, you can start on the lower side and make sure your gun functions fine with them. ArchA is correct in his posts as well. Unfortunately, there is no finite answer to your question. Even the most reputable bullet manufacturers will only give broad ranges and not dead-nuts specifics - why. Because firearms are different to each other as are the individual components we use. Other variation involve temperature, humidity, season of assembly, etc. Hope this helps. As said in the "Pirates of the Caribbean" movies - its more like guidelines.

 

[LiveLife]

Lee data ... the disc they suggest is much smaller than the listed weight???

I have found actual auto disk powder drops could vary up to .2+ gr from the chart and now use the chart as a guide as indicated by Lee and go by the scale readings that's been verified by check weights in the same powder charge weight range - http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/AD2302.pdf

This chart is a guide to determine the APPROXIMATE CAPACITY of all popular brands for each cavity. Actual charges may vary due to manufacturing tolerances of the cavities, powder and method of use. These charges are not safe to use for maximum loads without first checking them on a scale

180 grain, plated hollow point ... Rainer ... Unique

The Lee book suggest 5.2-5.5 with a coal of 1.125.

Lyman 49th suggest 4.9 through 5.6 at a length of 1.115.

The man at Rainer suggested 6.0-6.6 with an length 1.110

I have made 30 rounds at 1.130 with 5.6 grains of unique. My second test batch is going to be 6.0 with a length of 1.120. I have not tested either. I'm torn who to believe.

It's a good reloading practice to change only one variable at a time.

I prefer to first determine the maximum/working OAL first then adjust powder. Walkalong has an excellent thread to determine max/working OAL using your barrel - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8864541#post8864541

As to deciding which start/max charges to use, as others posted, I prefer to use load data for the same bullet/type I am using. When I cannot find plated load data for powder I am using, I reference lead load data for my powder work up which has worked well for me the past 20+ years.

Lee Precision compiles published load data into their book and Lee lead load data is same as 2004 Alliant load data - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

2004 Alliant load data lists 5.5 gr max charge of Unique for 180 gr Laser Cast lead bullet at 1.125" OAL. If you look at the comparison picture of 40S&W bullets above, you'll notice 165 gr JHP is taller than 165 gr RNFP bullet due to the hollow cavity in the nose tip which means your 180 gr Rainier HP bullet will be longer than 180 gr TCFP bullet. Longer bullet loaded to same OAL will seat the bullet base deeper in the case neck and increase chamber pressure.

To be on the safe side, when I cannot find load data for the bullet type I am using, I will use the lowest published start/max charges for my powder work up (you can always go up ). If my working OAL is shorter/bullet seating depth deeper than published load data, I will reduce my powder charges .2-.3 gr depending on the difference.

Since Lyman #49 listed 4.9/5.6 gr for start/max for 180 gr JHP at 1.115" OAL, if your working OAL is around 1.115", I would test 4.8/5.0/5.2/5.4 gr and see how the pistol slide cycles, extracts/ejects spent cases and accuracy trends. If using Auto Disk, Unique meters with .2-.3 gr variance in my Pro Auto Disk and if you are going by disk holes, you could try .53 hole with 4.9 gr drop and .57 hole with 5.2 gr drop while verifying powder drops with the scale. (Update: Searching older threads, many are using 5.0-5.5 gr of Unique with lead/plated bullets and 6.0+ gr with jacketed bullets or longer OAL - key point here is bullet seating depth of longer HP bullet)

My guess is that you should have reliable slide cycling and accuracy with 5.2/5.4 gr loads. If not, you can incrementally increase the powder charge (or .61 hole with 5.6 gr drop) until you have reliable slide cycling/spent case extraction/ejection with accuracy.

I am looking for a medium energy round.

Unique/Universal/Power Pistol/BE-86/WSF/Herco are good powder candidates. While I use W231/HP-38 for lower velocity target loads, I like BE-86 and Herco for very accurate moderate loads - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

I'm torn who to believe.

I have reloaded 40S&W for over 20 years and it was my match caliber. I have seen my share of case wall failures/ruptures (KaBooms) including in 40S&W with some KBs resulting in serious injuries and when I am using mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass, I will exercise caution as it's my hands and face on the line.

If you are torn as to who to believe, do yourself a favor and use more conservative load data. Life is hard enough, why make it any harder?

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

Thank you fellows. I worked up a couple of test batches. I was happy with all, I will stick with 1.025 with 6 grains of Unique. It pushed the 180s a bit over 1000 fps. The funny thing was there was very little velocity difference between the loads being half a grn off, maybe 50 fps. I couldn't tell the recoil difference.

The data had no happy middle ground. The numbers did not overlap. Thanks again all.

 

[LiveLife]

180 grain, plated hollow point ... Rainer

1.025 with 6 grains of Unique. It pushed the 180s a bit over 1000 fps.

Glad range test went well. BTW, did you mean 1.125"?

It's interesting that Alliant lists 180 gr Gold Dot HP at 1.120" with 6.7 gr of Unique at 1,000 fps out of 4" barrel and you got higher velocity with 6.0 gr - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...owderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=29

there was very little velocity difference between the loads being half a grn off, maybe 50 fps.

So were the powder charges weighed or dropped?

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

The loads were dropped but also more than half of them were weighed, as I still am fairly new with working with Unique I wanted to become familiar. Yes the length were closer to 1.125.

I was actually getting less consistant lengths than I am accustomed to. It was either because I was measuring hps with a micrometer or because I was making minor adjustments, fine tuning getting ready for a big batch of 500.

As far as the higher velocity I assume it might have been because of shape of the back of the bullets. They are cupped, and look like they could trap pressure. I like these loads alot. I may keep about 300 of them around for fun times. I also was shooting them above my usual abilities.

 

[LiveLife]

Yes I do like the cupped/concave bullet base you could barely see on post #9 picture. I think they do trap gas to expand the base better.

I was actually getting less consistant lengths than I am accustomed to.

That could be due to variation in bullet nose.

Even when using Montana Gold FMJ/JHP bullets, I do see OAL variation but if using progressive, using resized brass will help produce more consistent OAL due to less shell plate tilt/deflection.

I have love/hate experience with Unique as I like the burn rate but prefer to see +/- .1 gr variance in powder drops. I have since switched to BE-86 with similar burn rate which meters better without Power Pistol's fire balls.

 

[JohnhenrySTL]

After the first five charges, I get consistant charges through my Lee auto disc. I read a suggestion on here to keep my charges above five grains with the Unique/Lee combo. It helps. I would say about almost consistant as w231 or bullsye. And strangely enough as I think about it, even if the weights varied a bit more, my velocities were more consistant than anything else I have noticed.

I'm not one to chase hot loads. Most of the loads I have made have been on the safer and tamer end. I was looking for true mid range speeds. My bullsye .38 recipe appears faster than the data would suggest. It's 3.4 of Bullsye pushing a lead 158 swc.

My 9x18 load development is off. Using converted brass, and at max charges of bullsye I was getting under 800 fps. My shooting partners cheap surplus were of equal weight and 300 fps faster. I'm not one to take pride in hot loads, but I atleast I want something within spec. The cz ammo all cycled, but we're roughly .020 longer than the suggested minimum. Perhaps that was my problem.