I am thinking about adding a Ruger SBH with a 4 5/8 barrel to my collection. I would like to solicit opinions about its role as a SD weapon. GA Arms lists a mild 44mag LSWC round at 1100fps. This is what I would use. Due to its cal I am not too worried about it being a SA for obvious reasons. Any thoughts?
44 Mag For SD?
- Thread starter Tom B
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WebHobbit
Member
It's a never a good idea to use solid bullets for SD. The potential for over-penetration is simply too great. Plus no matter which theory of stopping power you adhere to most (except the really lame ones) will agree that hollow-points have more.
Personally against 2 legged critters I think the .357 tends to be better than the .44 Magnum. But if I HAD TO USE a .44 Mag. I would probably go with Winchester Silvertips or Corbons's 165 grain jhp.
Personally against 2 legged critters I think the .357 tends to be better than the .44 Magnum. But if I HAD TO USE a .44 Mag. I would probably go with Winchester Silvertips or Corbons's 165 grain jhp.
Zak Smith
Member
Just load up a 200gr Gold Dot at about 1000-1100fps. Alternatively, a 240gr Gold Dot at 1100+fps.
The former should expand more. The latter should penetrate a bit more.
-z
The former should expand more. The latter should penetrate a bit more.
-z
I bought some Garrett 250 gr. weight forward lead cast self defense ammo months ago.......at 1000 fps, and with a very wide meplat it is probably the best out there at this time for 2 legged and some 4 legged creatures.......although I looked at their website the other day, and I did not see this ammo listed on the website any more...........Cor-Bon makes some good ammo also.......
Mikul
Member
The big one-shot stoppers seem to be doing it with high velocity. I would want something over 1,300fps. The .44 magnum can do that with 300gr bullets, but you're going to penetrate the perpetrator, the house behind him and probably still be able to kill a hog with that load, so I would stick to the lightest bullet you can. The 165 seems like a good place to be.
Then I'd run it through some phone books to get an idea of what I'm dealing with. It won't tell you how it's going to damage a person, but you can do some comparative tests. I changed my 9mm carry rounds based on these tests.
Then I'd run it through some phone books to get an idea of what I'm dealing with. It won't tell you how it's going to damage a person, but you can do some comparative tests. I changed my 9mm carry rounds based on these tests.
Jim March
Member
I disagree on the speed issue.
Look, your average 44mag JHP is set up as a hunting load. It'll be about 240grains typically, and expand only after punching "deep" for deer or whatever, moving at around 1,300+. The Hornady XTP is a good example of the breed. These work like crap on humans, they'll blow clean through before expanding, you might as well be running solids.
The Speer Gold Dot projectile in 44Cal and 200 grains is designed to perform at around 1,000 - 1,100fps, and are *exactly* what the doctor ordered either in a mild 44Mag load or a hot 44Spl. Better to use it in 44Mag shells, so your accuracy is a bit better.
Proload loads this EXACT round as a factory standard - the "Tactical Lite" 44Mag defense load. www.proload.com
If you drive a hollowpoint faster than it's intended speed envelope, it'll first expand, but then shred back down to close to the original caliber and shed weight as the "mushroom" disintigrates. This is NOT a good thing.
Look, your average 44mag JHP is set up as a hunting load. It'll be about 240grains typically, and expand only after punching "deep" for deer or whatever, moving at around 1,300+. The Hornady XTP is a good example of the breed. These work like crap on humans, they'll blow clean through before expanding, you might as well be running solids.
The Speer Gold Dot projectile in 44Cal and 200 grains is designed to perform at around 1,000 - 1,100fps, and are *exactly* what the doctor ordered either in a mild 44Mag load or a hot 44Spl. Better to use it in 44Mag shells, so your accuracy is a bit better.
Proload loads this EXACT round as a factory standard - the "Tactical Lite" 44Mag defense load. www.proload.com
If you drive a hollowpoint faster than it's intended speed envelope, it'll first expand, but then shred back down to close to the original caliber and shed weight as the "mushroom" disintigrates. This is NOT a good thing.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Greeting's All-
While I LOVE the weapon, I would not recommend the use
of the single-action RUGER SUPER BLACKHAWK for
self defensive purposes. There are better alternatives out
there, believe me. My personal favorite self-defense .44 Magnum would be the 5" barrel 629-5 "Classic" from
Smith & Wesson, cuz it makes a darn near perfect set-up
and launch platform for this high intensity cartridge; plus
it offers the double-action capeability!
Best Wsihes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
While I LOVE the weapon, I would not recommend the use
of the single-action RUGER SUPER BLACKHAWK for
self defensive purposes. There are better alternatives out
there, believe me. My personal favorite self-defense .44 Magnum would be the 5" barrel 629-5 "Classic" from
Smith & Wesson, cuz it makes a darn near perfect set-up
and launch platform for this high intensity cartridge; plus
it offers the double-action capeability!
Best Wsihes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
The .44 magnum is an excellent self-defense cartridge. My personal preference is for light hollow-pointed jacketed bullets at maxumum speed.
I personally wouldn't choose a single-action revolver, but lots of people are every bit as handy with them as I am with my double-action revolver—and handier, too, I'm sure.
I'm sure the sound of the hammer being pulled back and a look down the business end of that gun would be enough to give any sane criminal a moment's self-doubt.
I personally wouldn't choose a single-action revolver, but lots of people are every bit as handy with them as I am with my double-action revolver—and handier, too, I'm sure.
I'm sure the sound of the hammer being pulled back and a look down the business end of that gun would be enough to give any sane criminal a moment's self-doubt.
Frohickey
Member
Are you should you would rather have a SA SBH for a SD weapon?
Wouldn't a Ruger Old Army Cap and Ball revolver be better? Fill it with FFFg, and use the smoke for concealment.
A 4-5 inch double action revolver would be much better.
Wouldn't a Ruger Old Army Cap and Ball revolver be better? Fill it with FFFg, and use the smoke for concealment.
A 4-5 inch double action revolver would be much better.
WebHobbit
Member
I will get me a .44 Magnum one day.
I'll use it for "defense".....
you know just incase a wild animal escapes from a zoo or something...or maybe space aliens attack....or I need to penetrate the hide of a prehistoric lizard.
But for regular SD work I'm going with my .357s.
I'll use it for "defense".....
you know just incase a wild animal escapes from a zoo or something...or maybe space aliens attack....or I need to penetrate the hide of a prehistoric lizard.
But for regular SD work I'm going with my .357s.
Hutch
Member
FWIW, I carry the Blazer .44Spl GDHP's in my 3" M29, when I tote that one. While the stated specs are almost identical to the WW Silvertip in the same weight, the CCI's seem to be noticably hotter when you shoot them. I haven't chrono'd any to really find out. The ProLoad the Jim mentioned looks very good. I may have to check that out. During my investigation, I discovered that Federal 44M HydraShoks claim 1180fps for the 240gr bullet. That should be just subsonic in my 3", so I'm gonna try those as well.
Concur with everyone else about using a thumb-buster for SD.
Concur with everyone else about using a thumb-buster for SD.
seeker_two
Member
SD load: Cor-Bon's .44SPL loads are highly regarded.
SA revolver for SD: While I'm not going to advise against it (I have a Blackhawk .357MAG as one of my nightstand guns), you really need to know it's limitations. Accurate shot placement is even more vital. Quick (or even slow) reloads are not an option in a gunfight, so you'll need a second gun handy JIC. And you'll need to practice shooting SD scenarios A LOT (draw, fire on multiple targets for multiple hits, etc.) I'd really work on the El Presidente' drill until it's reflexive. I've know a few guys who carry SA's as their CCW's, but they've got a lot of practice doing it...
SA revolver for SD: While I'm not going to advise against it (I have a Blackhawk .357MAG as one of my nightstand guns), you really need to know it's limitations. Accurate shot placement is even more vital. Quick (or even slow) reloads are not an option in a gunfight, so you'll need a second gun handy JIC. And you'll need to practice shooting SD scenarios A LOT (draw, fire on multiple targets for multiple hits, etc.) I'd really work on the El Presidente' drill until it's reflexive. I've know a few guys who carry SA's as their CCW's, but they've got a lot of practice doing it...
I don't see a real problem using a SA for defense (assuming some proficiency). Sure, there are some disadvantages...but I do better instinctive shooting with them and that is what you will probably be doing if it is dark and you don't have night sights. Might keep you from quickly missing six times too.
Full power loads in a 44 mag are probably a little loud indoors, something to consider. If I were to use a SBH for defense, I would try Speer 225 gr swcjhp between 1,200 and 1,300 fps. They have quite a bit of soft lead exposed and expand well, even in small animals. My guess is they would work well for defense...maybe no better than the Gold Dots, but one I would try.
I am also curious to hear what bullet switch you made in the 9mm.
My .02, dvnv
Full power loads in a 44 mag are probably a little loud indoors, something to consider. If I were to use a SBH for defense, I would try Speer 225 gr swcjhp between 1,200 and 1,300 fps. They have quite a bit of soft lead exposed and expand well, even in small animals. My guess is they would work well for defense...maybe no better than the Gold Dots, but one I would try.
I am also curious to hear what bullet switch you made in the 9mm.
My .02, dvnv
Jim March
Member
Hutch: that load in 44Spl and the Proload 44maggie "tactical lite" should be very similar in terms of terminal effects, except that in your shorter barrel you might want to run just a little more heat which I suspect the Proload will give. The chief difference will probably be in accuracy, in that the longer case of the Proload answer means less freebore effect, plus Proload's shot-to-shot charge consistency is considered among the best in the industry across most calibers.
And nickel cases should eject easier than aluminum.
www.ammoman.com has some good prices on Proload...
And nickel cases should eject easier than aluminum.
www.ammoman.com has some good prices on Proload...
Peter Gun
Member
I keep my SRH loaded w/ the winchester supreme 250gr hunting loads at home. Tons of power and I've found that the nosler partition gold bullets are very reliable expanders. Even if they do over penetrate, the hole will be huge and the expanded bullet is not likely to penetrate much more beyond the target. I've shot them into all kinds of media and they have never failed to expand. They are very accurate too.
Mannlicher
Member
I see nothing wrong with your Ruger for SD. I have carried Rugers and Smiths in .45 Colt and .44 Mag myself. I don't feel that full power loads are needed for defense though. In both calibers, I load down.
I don't think you have to worry a lot about that current buzz word, "overpenetration". Most of that hype is just that, hype. Don't worry about using solid lead bullets either. A .44 hole is going to do the job. That goes for .45 also.
A 225 grain or heavier bullet at around 900 to 1000 fps in either caliber will be effective.
I don't think you have to worry a lot about that current buzz word, "overpenetration". Most of that hype is just that, hype. Don't worry about using solid lead bullets either. A .44 hole is going to do the job. That goes for .45 also.
A 225 grain or heavier bullet at around 900 to 1000 fps in either caliber will be effective.
Edward429451
member
I agree with this line of thinking. Plus, I'm too cheap to buy jacketed 44's!
I cast the lyman 180 gr WC and the 245 gr Keith bullets for defensive loads in 44 special and Mag. For my Bulldog I load the 180's by feel rather than velocity so I can recover faster with the lite (19 oz) gun which bucks quite a bit with even medium loads. Backed up by the 245's for a speedloader reload if needed. Since I shot my Chrony,:banghead: I can only guess that the 180's are probably only doing 700 to 800 fps from the 2.5" bbl. They'll work.The RH gets warmer loads in mag brass b/c its more controllable. I don't pack the RH except in the mountains, but the nite sites make it a dandy nitestand gun!
WebHobbit
Member
Well, I guess I'll agree to disagree with you Edward429451 as I don't think using handloads for defense is a very smart move in this litigious society we live in.
Edward429451
member
Theres that old wives tale again! I dont know who ever got prosecuted for using handloads for SD, and never heard of anyone 'getting off' for using factory loads. If the DA has it out for you, it aint gonna make a diiference. IMO, the priority is saving your bacon first and worrying bout the DA second. If you can afford to practice with your carry ammo, great! I would if I hit the lotto. Nah, Probably not. I'm a reloader to the bone and would just buy more componants. I see your point though. Good line of reasoning but I just got this stubborn american attitude of refusing to let slimey DA's & lawyers dictate my actions through threats & intimidation.
Bucking the lawyers and continuing on your own course has a sweet almost truely free taste to it, albeit possibly illusory but you only live once and freedom soup tastes mighty good. Those who cower from the lawyers never get to taste it, just smell it from a distance while shelling out money and never do get to taste it, thats illusory too! Its the little things in life that make one feel free instead of feel penned up in the holding cage constantly. I'm prolly talkin out my arse, just cause they aint got around to me yet. I'll prolly change my tune then but in the mean time, it tastes good. Yum.
I see your point though. Good line of reasoning but I just got this stubborn american attitude of refusing to let slimey DA's & lawyers dictate my actions through threats & intimidation.Bucking the lawyers and continuing on your own course has a sweet almost truely free taste to it, albeit possibly illusory but you only live once and freedom soup tastes mighty good. Those who cower from the lawyers never get to taste it, just smell it from a distance while shelling out money and never do get to taste it, thats illusory too! Its the little things in life that make one feel free instead of feel penned up in the holding cage constantly. I'm prolly talkin out my arse, just cause they aint got around to me yet. I'll prolly change my tune then but in the mean time, it tastes good. Yum.
WebHobbit
Member
While I do not think one would get "prosecuted for using handloads" I do think it could be just another nail in your coffin when it comes to surviving in court AFTER you've survived on the street.
I wish I could say I came up with the line above but I got that from some Masaad Ayoob article. Say what you want about the guy but he REALLY IS an expert defense witness and he has stated over and over that while it IS possible to win with handloads it just adds another layer of legal **** to the situation.
Ayoob always said it's best to use factory loads AND if your local PD uses something decent (and you can find out what that is) than it might even help to get the same thing-- or as close as you can approximate. I know the +p+ 9mm stuff is awfully hard to get for non LEOs. If I carried a 9mm (NEVER WILL!) I would use the Corbon +p 115 for example.
I wish I could say I came up with the line above but I got that from some Masaad Ayoob article. Say what you want about the guy but he REALLY IS an expert defense witness and he has stated over and over that while it IS possible to win with handloads it just adds another layer of legal **** to the situation.
Ayoob always said it's best to use factory loads AND if your local PD uses something decent (and you can find out what that is) than it might even help to get the same thing-- or as close as you can approximate. I know the +p+ 9mm stuff is awfully hard to get for non LEOs. If I carried a 9mm (NEVER WILL!) I would use the Corbon +p 115 for example.
Edward429451
member
Aw, I've never talked down on Ayoob. Got most of his books, read em multiple times. Good stuff, good man. I just don't follow every single thing he says so religiously, thats all. I AM prolly wrong in my thinking and you are prolly right, it makes a lot of sense what you say. But theres that stubborn american autonomy in me. If I spent as much time in a courtroom as he does, I'm sure I'd see the light. If only I hadn't paid attention in history class...
The disclaimer is; Don't listen to Edward429451 on legal issues, he's just one of those poor plumber guys who gets on here to rant a little. Too much attitude and too little brains! Oh well. maybe ya'll can get thrugh this thick head of mine eventually.
The disclaimer is; Don't listen to Edward429451 on legal issues, he's just one of those poor plumber guys who gets on here to rant a little. Too much attitude and too little brains! Oh well. maybe ya'll can get thrugh this thick head of mine eventually.
yotehunter
Member
I have a couple 3in 629's that I use for CCW, I keep the one im carrying at the time loaded with corbon 165gr 44spl's and I carry 2 speed loads with 44mag winchester 210gr silvertips.
The one thing I love about this setup is I know its going to go bang when I pull the trigger and whatever the situation I have the bullet for the job.
The one thing I love about this setup is I know its going to go bang when I pull the trigger and whatever the situation I have the bullet for the job.
caz223
Member
If I was carrying my .44 mag bisquero in the woods with stompin' deer loads in it, and somebody decided to be antagonizing, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them with it.
I figger they'd be just as dead as a deer.
That being said, isn't it a little bigger/heavier/louder/hotter than necessary for skin jobs.
A 4" .357 mag DA would be better, doncha think?
I figger they'd be just as dead as a deer.
That being said, isn't it a little bigger/heavier/louder/hotter than necessary for skin jobs.
A 4" .357 mag DA would be better, doncha think?
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