44 mag/spl with IMR 800

[notropis]

This is a new round for me to reload and I'm having some issues.
I'm trying to work up a load using IMR 800 to propel a 200 grain lead round nose flat point with CCI #300 primer (standard large pistol).
I'm seeing lots of unburned powder. Is this primarily a problem with the powder or may a different primer solve my problem? If a new primer will help, what has worked for you?

Hodgdon published data for this powder with this projectile seems very tame. 840 FPS start and 972 FPS max for 44 SPL with modest pressure seems strangely light. Then When I look at 44 magnum load (also Hodgdon data), it suggests max load below 44 spl @ 813 fps.

Am I missing something obvious here?

 

[rcmodel]

No, thats real strange!
I just looked at it myself, and something appears to be clearly wrong with that .44 Mag data.

.44 Spl = 6.4 start to 7.4 Max
.44 Mag = 5.9 Max.

WTH?

The powder isn't burning clean because of low pressure, not the primers you are using.

I'd suggest you call Hodgdon first thing tomorrow and ask them to explain it.

I sure can't!

rc

 

[gamestalker]

That's has to be a misprint. I'm betting that the special and magnum data with 800 is backwards?

If it were me, and it's not, I would try the start charge for 44 special in the magnum cartridge. I can't see how it could possibly cause a serious over pressure situation. Running a 44 magnum charge in the smaller 44 special case could create higher pressures though, IMO.

GS

 

[John C]

My Lyman 49th Reloading Handbook shows a range of 12.0 to 15.1 gr of 800x for .44 mag, 210 gr cast bullet. It doesn't show 800x for .44 special.

I see that the Hodgdon data for .44 mag is for very low pressure, 10k or so CUP. Why? I don't know.

 

[notropis]

Gamestalker,
I have loaded and shot the start charge for 44 SPL and that caused my post. When loading 6.4 grains of IMR 800X, it feels extremely weak and I often have unburned powder. I should mention that I use a projectile that has crimp groove and I make sure to use it.

John C,
In both rounds listed, the pressure and velocity seems quite low relative to the higher ranges of other powders. I still wonder if this powder has some quirky issue that I'm not aware of.

I appreciate you fellas helping me here and any additional advice would be appreciated. I'd like to make this load work.

I will proceed to bump up the powder charge on 44 SPL and see if that helps combustion and I will shoot an email off to Hodgdon and see what happens.

 

[notropis]

Okay, I emailed Hodgdon this morning and they responded with lightning speed.
I asked: "Is the load data for 200 grain LRNFP 44 magnum correct? If not please advise."
Hodgdon reply:

The .44 mag data is correct as far as it goes. That data was generated by the IMR lab before we purchased the company. The way to tell is that all of the older IMR data only lists max loads. We never had the opportunity to update the data and there hasn't been a great demand for it either. BTW the .44 spec. data was updated by the Hodgdon lab mainly for the Cowboy Action Shooters.

I also asked: "How can I overcome the incomplete combustion with the 44 special?"
Hodgdon reply:

I use as hard a roll crimp as I can without bulging the case to help with lighting the charge. Increasing the charge weight may also help if the crimp doesn't do the trick.

I believe his reply was as helpful as possible and I appreciate it. It however leaves me out in the cold a bit. I already use a hard roll crimp with 44 special but I will bump the charge and see if that helps. As far as the 44 Mag load, as of now in my reloading experience, I don't go over published max. I work up to it all the time, being careful, weighing loads, looking for pressure. In this case, I will either have to get a chrono and make my own data (less pressure) or just stop using IMR 800 for this caliber.

So I wanted to report back and also seek additional advice. I hate to have this powder just linger for lack of use and lack of 44 special brass!

PS: I don't like publishing private emails usually but I think this information is positive for Hodgdon and for reloaders in general.

 

[rcmodel]

You can safely use the .44 Spl data in .44 Mag cases if you want too.

It can't hurt a thing, except the pressures & velocities will be even lower then in the .44 Spl cases.

rc

 

[John C]

You're doing the right thing by critically evaluating the data, and asking the right questions.

800x is a well established powder, and with an excellent reputation for mid range magnum rounds.

Keep researching, and evaluate all of the reputable load data you can find.

 

[Schwing]

I agree that this data is most certainly not correct. Comparing apples to oranges here but I have an old IMR PDF that they published a while back and it lists 15.5 grains of 800x as the max for a SPEER 200 GR. J MAG. HP. This load has a pressure of 39800 and 1600fps. While the lead load data would certainly be much lighter for a lrn, I doubt that it would be THAT much. Here is a copy if you want to take a look.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Schwing is on the right track. Look on the last page. For lead 240 gr. 13.5 gr. 1400 fps & 38700 cup. I would use that as a starting point.
800-X is my 2nd favorite load in 45 Colt. Best results with a heavy crimp and magnum primer.

 

[notropis]

I appreciate your help fellas.
The PDF you posted agrees with (or very similar to) current Hodgdon data for 240 grain lead.

I'll get to work on this load and thanks again. I now feel a lot more comfortable working on this one.