44 Magnum - confusion over Bullseye

[Shrinkmd]

I want to make up some lighter loads, and I have Bullseye and 2400. I'm confused since Alliant says 6gr is a max load for 240 gr lead, wheras Lee lists 9 to start! I've seen a few other threads mentioning this, but I haven't found a consensus on what is safe.

So, if I want some modrate loads to start getting used to the 44 magnum, should I use stronger Bullseye loads or lighter 2400?

 

[loadedround]

The new Speer Manual #14 also lists 6.0 gr of Bullseye as maximum for a 240 gr lead bullet. I'd err on the side of safety and stick with 6.0 of Bullseye as maximum.

 

[PapaG]

If given a choice between the manufacturer's data and something written by the latter day George Leonard Herter (the pioneer of hyperbole in advertising, title now held by Richard Lee), I take Alliant every time.

Not that Lee's stuff isn't useable it is just that most if the time it doesn't live quite up to the hype, and I have a lot of Lee's stuff.

 

[rcmodel]

Your confusion stems from the two completely different lead bullet types used with the current Alliant and older Lee data.

New Alliant data is using Soft-Swaged Speer bullets, and velocity has to be held to around 900 FPS or less to prevent leading.

Older Lee data is copied directly from older Alliant data, prior to ATK/Speer neutering the current data to only include Speer manufactured soft-swaged & plated bullets.

Lee has no ballistics lab, and every load in his book is copied directly from the old powder & bullet manufactures data who did have labs.

The 2004 Alliant reloading guide lists a Cast Gas-Check 240 grain bullet, with a MAX charge of 9.8 grains giving 1,175 FPS.

In truth, you could use the New Alliant 6.0 MAX as a starting load with real cast bullets.
Probably not the old 9.8 MAX max though, unless you are using hard-cast GC bullets like they were.

But by any means, you are better off using Bullseye for light mid-range loads then you would be trying to use 2400 reduced that far.
It will not burn clean at low pressure, and you will not like it.

rc

 

[griff383]

7.1 is MAX for Bullseye with a 240 grain lead bullet, as per Hornady 7th ED. I have loaded Bullseye under a 240 grain LRN and really enjoyed it. I would stay under the 7.1 max as leading was starting to appear.

I use 3 powders for my 629 6":

Trail Boss for my mouse fart loads, anyone can shoot these comortably

Bullseye for general plining, great mid range load / easy to handle

2400 for full power mag loads

 

[Slamfire]

I don't have any data for Bullseye in the 44 Magnum.

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds with 2400.

The classic Keith full power load was 22.0 grains 2400 with a 245 Lyman. Gunwriters today claim that modern 2400 is more powerful than old, something I have no way to verify, so maximim loads now are closer to 20.0. I have shot ammo boxes full of 22.0 grains with no ill effects other than a bad flinch and shell shock from the muzzle blast.


I did cut the load to 17.5 grains 2400 and a lead 240. This loads goes at 1200 fps in a 7.5" Ruger Super Blackhawk.

If you have Unique, I have shot about 500-1000 rounds of 8.5 grains Unique with a 240 L. This clocks right at 1000 fps.

 

[rcmodel]

7.1 is MAX for Bullseye with a 240 grain lead bullet, as per Hornady 7th ED.

Again, Hornady, like Speers lead bullets, are all soft-swaged, and will not stand as high a velocity without leading as real cast bullets.

Thier Max load is not Max due to Max pressure.
It is MAX due to the soft-swaged bullets leading at any higher velocity.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

Listen to rc on this one.

 

[griff383]

Ah, thank you for clarifying

 

[Shrinkmd]

Thank you all for the great replies. The explanation about Speer and Hornady's soft lead bullets being rate limiting and NOT the pressure makes lots of sense. It is too bad that the manuals don't trust us enough to state this explicitly.

I have the Dardas cast bullets which are supposed to be 16 bhn.

I will start at 5 gr of Bullseye and work toward 9 gr. Eventually I'd like to shoot the "normal" start load of 2400 (18.6?) but I need somewhere below that to start.

 

[zxcvbob]

Red Dot, Unique, and Herco are also good powders to use with cast bullets. Red Dot for light-to-medium loads, and Unique or Herco for medium-to-heavy loads. (12 to 12.5 grains of Herco with a 240 grain cast bullet is a handful, and it's cheap to shoot)

 

[Shaky]

Worth keeping in mind that at a BHN of 16, super low pressure loads may not make the bullet obturate and cause leading. If you reach your comfort zone with recoil and have leading issues, you may want to go to 44 special brass to get pressures up and keep velocity down (using less powder, of course).

 

[Walkalong]

It is too bad that the manuals don't trust us enough to state this explicitly.

My older Speer manual stated it. Haven't looked at the #13 to see if it does.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Good point about not going too low with these bullets. I wonder how high I could safely go with Bullseye in a non gc bullet. 8? 9? The 9.8 would be too much, right?

 

[zxcvbob]

The 9.8 would be too much, right?

Not necessarily. But you'll probably either find a load you like or switch to a slower powder before you get that high.

 

[Shaky]

I think the bullet will hold up to 9.8 of Bullseye from a 44 mag case just fine, and I expect you will have your best results closer to this than at 5-6 grains. The best advise I can offer is to start at a charge you are absolutely comfortable with and move up slowly. Always better to scrub a bore than go through reconstructive surgery (or worse). If you are able to recover the fired bullets, you'll only need one to see gas cutting, indicating you'll need a stiffer charge, and you'll likely find your best accuracy even beyond that (my Redhawk likes 17-18 bhn with max loads, with no need for gas checks).
There's also a school of thought that a low enough pressure will allow the lube to seal the bore with no need to obturate the bullet, but that's something I have not personally tinkered with.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If you're willing to change powders and go with the middle powder of the Alliant powder trinity Unique would probably be a better choice than Bullseye. I personally would be using HS-6 but that's because my powder trinity is W231, HS-6 (W540) and W296.

 

[Walkalong]

If you're willing to change powders and go with the middle powder of the Alliant powder trinity Unique would probably be a better choice than Bullseye.

Yep

 

[x_wrench]

i have 2 different levels of plinking loads i am using in my 6" S&W 629 using bullseye powder. the first is 4.0g of bullseye with a 240g cast lee (w.w.) using std federal primers, seating to the crimp groove. the second is 6.0g of bullseye, the rest staying the same. the first (lowest) load is very mild. even your girlfreind/wife would enjoy shooting them. the second is more a not quite magnum load. it will give you some muzzle flip and recoil. but not nearly as bad as a full magnum load. i hope this helps.

 

[Shrinkmd]

More info from old MidwayUSA loadmap

I found this file dated 1998, it suggests 2400 at a starting charge of 15.1 with the 240 gr Hornady LSWC, and ends at 20 gr. (I know this isn't Bullseye data, but while we're on the topic of reduced loads I thought I'd chime in with it)

The Hornady 3rd (from 1980) lists Bullseye from 5.2 to 7.2, and 2400 from 11.7 to 14.4 Same data in their 4th edition. Speer 12th lists 5.5 to 6.0 of Bullseye

It gets more confusing the more data I find. Hmm....

 

[GRIZ22]

should I use stronger Bullseye loads or lighter 2400?

I don't use Bullseye in 44 mag loads. Too easy to double (or triple) charge and a grain makes a bit diffrence in pressure. I prefer Unique for lighter loads.

 

[murf]

shrinkmd,

guess i ought to chime in here. griz22 beat me to the load density issue with bullseye. lot of empty space under the bullet. would go with 2400 for that reason. a 240 grain bullet will probably perform better with a slower, rather than faster, burning powder (another vote for 2400). you may have a leading issue here, but you won't know until you load some rounds up, shoot em up and find out. the 16bhn hardness should not lead below 1100fps if the bullet is not bevel base and if your chambers and barrel are the correct dimensions. again, load some up and go shooting. let us know how it goes. fwiw.

murf

 

[bluetopper]

A lot of empty space in the cartridge is the main concern of Bullseye in the 44 Mag it seems, not the performance of the powder.
Unlike some of the other fast burning powders, Bullseye burns very consistent under high pressure and does not suddenly pressure spike and is very accurate in this application. I've experimented quite a bit with it in 44 Mag in years past and this is my experience. For no particular reason however I have switched to using Universal in mid range loads but would not hesitate at all in going back to using Bullseye. I have put more but now, 7.5gr is all I would ever load and warn against any loading over 8gr no matter what any data says.

 

[Shrinkmd]

How come you wouldn't go above 8? The Lee data lists a higher starting charge, right?

I will start at 5.5 gr and go up in increments of 0.5 gr to 8 or so and chrony them. I will also run these through Quickload and see what it predicts for the 4" barrel. Would the v-comp affect the velocity since it comes after the actual barrel?

 

[bluetopper]

Your original question was you wanted to make some lighter loads using Bullseye, well, recoil is pretty harsh above 7.5gr and it's not a light load and felt recoil goes up dramatically after that. That is my personal threshold. If I want more velocity than that I'm using a magnum powder. No need to put undue stress on the gun and myself.
6gr is enjoyable and very adequate.