.44 Magnum +P

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What if you don't have any of those heavier calibers? The .44 +P makes all the sense in the world. If you need to kill very large animals. For any game animal in North America, the .44 mag will do it. It just makes sense to make a bigger, heavier bullet for bigger heavier animals like Elk & Bear.

I'd think if I had it in mind to take out after Elk or Bear, I'd get a firearm suitable for the purpose. Just because it might be marginally possible doesn't mean it is a worthwhile idea. The only time I might accept this as being the way to go would be a survivalist situation where a heavier caliber gun is not obtainable, but then obtaining this ammo would also be out of the question in such circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, I can be on board with 300gr projectiles, but the .44mag is incredibly stout at max pressure as it is- going higher just makes me want to put on Molly Hatchet's "Flirting With Disaster" and then watch the results from a distance.
 
A bit much?

[QUOTE+p in a .44 magnum seems like a bit much[/QUOTE]

In a 329 it is. In a 629 it is. For just plinking, they are a bit robust. In a 4" Redhawk it brings the .44 into its own against large bruin again. No need to change to the .454. Garrett and Buffalo Bore are making +P(+) loads of 330-340 grains for these heavy duty .44 revolvers.


Shooter429
 
I own a 629-5. It was my understanding that two professional metallic silhuette shooters shot 10,000 full-house rounds through the prototype mules to varify the strength of the modifications.

That may be. But there is a reason that the load we are speaking of here in this thread is not recommended for S&W N frame revolvers.

The original problem was more than just the cylinder locking bolts. When the -5 modifications were introduced they included: strengthening the retention system on the yoke and crane (cylinders had been dropping open under recoil), studs within the frame were radiused to help remove stress (they had been cracking and damaging the frames), cylinder notches were made deeper and longer to prevent the cylinder from rotating backward under recoil once they had been shot loose which happened often with steady diets of heavy loads, The bolt was changed and a few other changes were made which helped hold the gun together tighter than the pre -5 guns. The changes result in what John Taffin has called "...a sixgun that is probably a mite stronger and tougher, but remember, the cylinder and the frame are still the same size as found on the Triple-Lock of 1908." (Big Bore Sixguns, pg. 80).

Both Ruger and Dan Wesson beat S&W to the punch in developing revolvers that could stand up to heavy diets of powerful loads.

The casting precess can result in a frame that is pound for pound as strong as a forged frame, if the chemical composition of the alloys is correct and the procedure is done right. It is more expensive to do this though. Where casting really saves money over forged, is in less machining time.

I say this from experience. I work in the defense industry where both forged bar stock and plate steel and castings are used. Both are capable of having the same properties and uses. It's in the applications and cost that they differ.

That Ruger frames and cylinders are beefier than S&W frames helps in making them stronger. But the real gain in strength comes from a simpler and more modern design. The lock up of cylinder to frame is stronger. When the Redhawk appeared handloaders cooked up loads of 300 gr. bullets at 1500 fps and the Redhawks took them without complaint. The Super Redhawk is stronger yet and likely has the better trigger.

At any rate I'm all for new loads even if I personally don't see a real need for them. A 240 gr. bullet at 1300-1400 fps will take elk and brown bear with a well placed shot. A heavier, faster bullet will work of course but dead is dead.

I say all this cuz it's true. Still I'd prefer the handling qualities of the S&w 29 or 629 over the Ruger. I just do what Elmer Keith did and shoot about 600 heavy loads a year through mine, less sometimes, and tune up when needed. I know my limitations and I'll use a rifle on anything really big and hairy.

tipoc
 
I think there is a couple of points against shooting a +P load.
1-Thickness of the cyl wall in general and bolt cuts specifically.
2-Unless I am going after a T-Rex, I'm not sure a load that 'heavy' is really needed. A standard load seems to work pretty good as a general rule.
 
I am planning to go plinking with these in a S&W 329 2.5"
357x8, I expect a full range report, once you can use your hands again.

I wonder when S&W will release the X-Frame-based, .44 Magnum 7x or 8x... That would handle these just fine.

As far as S&W vs. Ruger... ...I'm convinced that they are both quality guns. But, for the price, you can wear out twice as many Rugers. It doesn't make you feel as bad. :neener:

Seriously, there are several Rugers on my short list. Currently, there is not a non-S&W gun in the house (or a slide-gun for that matter...).
 
Evyl, what a fantastic idea: 44-8-times on an X-Frame, will likely weigh in 70+ oz. loaded unless they start using some scandium on the X-Frames...

While talking large chunks of machined metal, I would like to see a Taurus .460 and with full-length cylinder and without the silly double-lockup cylinder releas latches of the raging bulls...
 
I love it. Manufacturers drop the pressures of their Magnum loadings down from the original 42-43,000 cup to around 35-38,000cup...then switch to another standard (psi) which allows them to drop pressures even more. Then someone comes along and loads ammo to the original pressure levels and calls it "+P".
 
A +P in .44magnum seems to be a bit much,

I agree, If you think you need a 44 Mag +P you probably need a rifle.
 
I will admit that I have several packages of Glaser Safety slugs in .44 Rem Mag. If I was on a whitetail hunt and camp out, I would also have to use the 629-5 for defense.
 
DWFan I love it. Manufacturers drop the pressures of their Magnum loadings down from the original 42-43,000 cup to around 35-38,000cup...then switch to another standard (psi) which allows them to drop pressures even more. Then someone comes along and loads ammo to the original pressure levels and calls it "+P".

That's about right. In the 80s shilloutte shooters were handloading a 300 gr. bullet at 1500 fps.

tipoc
 
"Magnum" loads

All you have to do is follow the history of the .357 Mag to point this out. The first loadings for this cartridge called for a 173gr bullet at approx. 1500 fps. The revolver makers, knowing their product couldn't handle that kind of load, built their .357's with cylinders too short to chamber the 173gr bullet. A compromise came about where the cartridge was produced with a 158gr bullet at 1550 fps.
Then comes the trend to smaller, lighter revolvers than can't handle that load so once again, the .357 gets cut back to a 125gr bullet moving at 1550 fps. Now the "standard" is that same 125gr bullet loaded to 1400-1450 fps and it's called a "magnum".
All the Magnums are being treated this way. Makers of the +P Magnum ammo are simply building their cartridges to the original loading specs. The same revolvers that couldn't handle the original loads still can't handle them.
 
I think everyone that immediately falls into the "You need a rifle" team are probably not handgun hunters. I have seen what a handgun will do to game animals and have no doubt a properly selected caliber - and most importantly, bullet - can take any animal alive in North America.

After all, this has been done and continues to be done on everything in Africa and we certainly don't have anything as big as they have there!
 
Here’s a couple close-ups of my Alaskan loaded with a 300gr hardcast and a 240gr Gold Dot. As you can see, Ruger made the cylinder so that a much longer OAL cartridge can be used.
88229d99-febf-461e-95dc-fa93a1ba5667.jpg
ac296101-598e-4d4b-981e-42f5fa6f18cf.jpg
 
Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I don't think there should be a "+P" after ".44 Magnum" at all. It should be .44 Magnum period IMO.

I think it's the lesser loads of the .44 Magnum which should be designated differently. Like .44 Magnum Light, .44 Magnum Wimpy Express, .44 Magnum Pantywaist, etc.

:D
 
All you have to do is follow the history of the .357 Mag to point this out. The first loadings for this cartridge called for a 173gr bullet at approx. 1500 fps. The revolver makers, knowing their product couldn't handle that kind of load, built their .357's with cylinders too short to chamber the 173gr bullet. A compromise came about where the cartridge was produced with a 158gr bullet at 1550 fps.
Then comes the trend to smaller, lighter revolvers than can't handle that load so once again, the .357 gets cut back to a 125gr bullet moving at 1550 fps. Now the "standard" is that same 125gr bullet loaded to 1400-1450 fps and it's called a "magnum".
All the Magnums are being treated this way. Makers of the +P Magnum ammo are simply building their cartridges to the original loading specs. The same revolvers that couldn't handle the original loads still can't handle them.

It isn't as severe as it appears. Manufacturers used to print velocities from unvented test barrels. Eventually they switched over to vented barrels that more accurately replicate most end-user's guns. Of course there still has been downloading of factory magnums (due in no small part to K-Frames cracking forcing cones, I suspect), but you can still get hotter 158gr@1400 factory loads from S&B and Fiocchi.

From the vented testing mechanism patent:
Significance of the use of the test barrel assembly 17 of this invention can be clearly demonstrated by a comparison of ballistic measurements. For example, in firing tests wherein velocities were measured in 6 in. barrels for 0.38 Special cartridges having lead bullets, the velocity measured for a cartridge with a 158 grain bullet, when fired in a standard unvented test barrel, of the type approved and used by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI), was 875 ft./sec. When fired in a test barrel assembly made in accordance with this invention and having a gap between the cylinder and barrel of 0.008 in., the velocity was measured at 780 ft./sec. Thus, the measurement with the SAAMI unvented test barrel was about 12.2 percent higher than the velocity which would result from firing the cartridge in an actual revolver. In another test utilizing a 200 grain bullet, the unvented test barrel produced a velocity reading of 760 ft./sec. while the vented test barrel of this invention produced a reading of 675 ft./sec. In this case, the use of the unvented barrel resulted in a velocity reading which was 12.6 percent high. In other tests, velocities in excess of 15 percent higher than the actual ballistic values have been found in standard prior art test barrels.
 
Mainsail---One quick question that is a little off topic. How do you like your Alaskan? I am thinking of getting one to replace my S&W 'Mountain Gun' or supplement, and was wondering about the recoil.
 
I really like the Alaskan. Recoil is manageable thanks to the Houge oversize grips. My teenage son even enjoys shooting it. Blazer is good practice ammo because it’s cheap and they didn’t load it heavy. That’s the gun I carry while hiking and backpacking.

The camera is just a Canon 720is (or something like that) set on macro.
 
Thanks Mainsail, I am headed to the NRA Convention Fri and I intend to check one out at the Ruger booth.
 
Mainsail, great picture of the Alaskan cylinder. That's why I got my Ruger Alaskan, to be able to use any hardcast ammo I want, or can handle.
I just love my Alaskan, and was really surprised at how manageable the recoil was with the 300grainers. This is my sidearm in Grizzly country.
 
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