.44 Special Question

[BluedRevolver]

Think I'm going to test a handload 225 grain jhp going, say, 1100 fps in .44 Special. Out of my 4" barreled S&W M29.

I'll compare it to a 1911 shooting Federal's Hydrashok .45 ACP 230 grain going 850-900 fps





Which do yall think would perform better, as far as stopping a determined human attacker?

 

[firesky101]

i certainly would not enjoy being hit with either. Based on the numbers you are giving the .44 should have more energy, still both would work fine.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Well, since people aren't hard to penetrate for bulllets in that class, maybe consider a pretty soft 200 to 240 grain cast bullet with a very flat nose, or "meplat." When power levels are approximately equal, the big strength of a revolver is that you can load up the most heinous bullets without having to care about whether they'll feed. I'm not a handload expert by any stretch, but I'm still imagining that a hammerheaded bullet with a BHN of 10 to 12 will splat quite nicely, with no risk of jacket separation.

I'm sure other people have tried this, and I recall reading that in the days of yore revolver guys would get hollow-base wadcutters and load them backwards. Don't know that I would go that far.

 

[Stainz]

If you do the math, for the same KE, the 225gr bullet would need to make 859-910 fps to equal a 230gr bullet at 850-900 fps. Also, 225gr at 1,100 fps will definitely be over the chamber pressure of a SAAMI spec'd .44 S&W Special. I'd put such a load in a .44 Magnum case. While it won't hurt a M29, it'd likely batter a .44 Special chambered revolver a bit.

A great 'man-stopper' is available as the Speer #4427 200gr Gold Dot (.44 Special) JHP bullet. That bullet is designed to fully open in ballistic gelatin by 800fps incident velocity, which it barely eclipses from my 2.5" barrel 296 when loaded as either CCI Blazers (Al case) or Georgia Arms (brass case) loads, as well as over their mid-load suggested Titegroup loading. It's devastating at 12yd minimum (stay dry distance) on 2L pop bottles full of water. I no longer fear marauding bands of pop bottles full of water!

Stainz

 

[Loosedhorse]

Speer #4427 200gr Gold Dot (.44 Special) JHP bullet

Great bullet. It is loaded in their Blazer ammo. It is not often that I would use Blazer ammo for SD, but for .44 Spec I do.

 

[Stainz]

After over 1k of those 200gr Gold Dot Blazers through my Ti cylindered 296 - I quit - and switched to GA Arms same bullet load in new brass. I had one of the Al cased Blazers split in my SS 696! The GA Arms ammo was the same or less in cost - and you gained good brass.

Stainz

 

[buck460XVR]

Also, 225gr at 1,100 fps will definitely be over the chamber pressure of a SAAMI spec'd .44 S&W Special. I'd put such a load in a .44 Magnum case. While it won't hurt a M29, it'd likely batter a .44 Special chambered revolver a bit.



Stainz

I tend to agree, for a load like that, I'd stick with a Mag case just to make sure it didn't end up in the wrong gun.

 

[Old Fuff]

Which do yall think would perform better, as far as stopping a determined human attacker?

I doubt that the "determined human attacker" whould know the difference, and energy numbers are meaningless in a handgun.

What will really make the difference is where you hit the attacker not what you hit them with.

 

[murf]

pick one. they will both do the job.

murf

 

[CraigC]

You will potentially get more expansion out of the .44 load. Yes, having a gun is the most important thing, shot placement is second but doing the most damage possible with a gun you're proficient with is also important.

As for safety, as long as it doesn't end up in a Bulldog, Taurus or pre-war Colt/S&W, you should be okay.

 

[Slamfire]

What are you going to test the round against and what is your criteria for success?

 

[popbang]

You might want to look at with 225 grain 44 bullet is what velocity it is designed for. Another issue is what your expectations are.

230 grain hollow points for 45 ACP have been developed for the 45 ACP velocity.

Many 44 bullets are developed for the 44 Mag. The 200 grain bullets are what is commonly loaded for 44 Special and that bullet will perform at Special velocities.

 

[BluedRevolver]

If you do the math, for the same KE, the 225gr bullet would need to make 859-910 fps to equal a 230gr bullet at 850-900 fps.

How do you figure that?

 

[rcmodel]

Plug in your numbers:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

If you do the math, for the same KE, the 225gr bullet would need to make 859-910 fps to equal a 230gr bullet at 850-900 fps.

The .44 225 at 860 FPS has the same energy as the .45 230 at 850 FPS.

Momentum would be the same.

rc

 

[BluedRevolver]

The .44 225 at 860 FPS has the same energy as the .45 230 at 850 FPS.

Momentum would be the same.

rc

Is that to make up for the 5 grain weight difference, or .02 diameter difference? Or both?

 

[stormborn]

Kinetic energy (and momentum) is a function of mass and velocity, size of the projectile doesn't factor into it. Of course aerodynamics (projectile shape, size, surface, etc) affect the bullet in flight, but that math gets a lot more complicated

 

[Old Fuff]

As for safety, as long as it doesn't end up in a Bulldog, Taurus or pre-war Colt/S&W, you should be okay.

I haven't had any problems with my Taurus model 445 (blued steel/5-shot/2" barrel), but I don't hot load it.

What I find more interesting is your comment concerning pre-war Colt's and Smith & Wesson's.

All of the Smith & Wesson's .44 Special hand-ejector revolvers were made on that company's large N-frame. Colt offered the Single Action Army and New Service/Shooting Master, both being built on the largest domesticly made big-bore frame. In both cases those made after World War One could easily stand up to a 235 grain/1100FPS handload. Elmer Keith's 250 grain/1000 FPS load using 17.5 grains of #2400 powder in solid head cases is easily digested in any of the above revolvers.

 

[Scipio Africanus]

Both are fine loads, however the .44 @ 1100 will definitely have more power. You are looking at 200, or so, more lb/ft of energy with the .44 load over the .45 @ 900fps. This is creeping into moderate .44 mag levels and should be noticeable both in the giving and recieving. Go hunting and shoot a deer, or better yet a pig, with that .44 load. With proper shot placement, it will build confidence.

If stopping nasty men is what you are after, that 225 grainer should be a quick expander. I agree with what other folks have said already, most .45 hollowpoints are made for quick expansion. Most .44 bullets are for hunting and you have to tailor the right .44 bullet to your load to get proper expansion. The Speer 200 and 210 GDs are just the ticket, the 210 Sierra and would be good too.

And if you are handloading, use the magnum case loaded to your desired level instead of the special. It'll be easier on the cylinder of that 29 and easier for you to clean up after shooting.

 

[CraigC]

All of the Smith & Wesson's .44 Special hand-ejector revolvers were made on that company's large N-frame. Colt offered the Single Action Army and New Service/Shooting Master, both being built on the largest domesticly made big-bore frame. In both cases those made after World War One could easily stand up to a 235 grain/1100FPS handload. Elmer Keith's 250 grain/1000 FPS load using 17.5 grains of #2400 powder in solid head cases is easily digested in any of the above revolvers.

Elmer Keith's load consisted of 17.5gr 2400 in solid head cases for 1200fps, not 1000 and you won't find a single authority on the subject who will suggest loading the guns I mentioned above SAAMI standard pressures. A 225gr jacketed bullet at 1100fps is approaching the Keith load at 26,000psi. Generally speaking, pre-war .44Spl sixguns should be treated a little more gently.

...but I don't hot load it.

Then I guess what I said doesn't apply.


If you're looking for a chink in my armor, Ole Fluffer, you won't find it in a discussion about the .44Spl.

 

[Magnumite]

That class 44 Special load is comparable to the 125 grain 1400 fps load which is very effective. Smaller frame gun, same barrel length, proven performance.

But is always fun to experiment. Key to the OP's load would be using a bullet that would reliably expand.

 

[Old Fuff]

Elmer Keith's load consisted of 17.5gr 2400 in solid head cases for 1200fps, not 1000 and you won't find a single authority on the subject who will suggest loading the guns I mentioned above SAAMI standard pressures. A 225gr jacketed bullet at 1100fps is approaching the Keith load at 26,000psi. Generally speaking, pre-war .44Spl sixguns should be treated a little more gently.

But we both know (or at least should know) that Keith's .44 Special load was widely used in Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers from the late 1920's and beyond without serious consequences. Had there been some they would have been revealed long before now.

No one is more steadfast then I in stressing that older revolver should be used with ammunition that's appropriate to they're age, but Keith's loads were not destructive in top-quality, heavy frame, Smith & Wesson or Colt revolvers. Wide use over a long period proved this to be true.

I have not hot loaded the little Taurus because I was worried about it standing up so much as concerns that I might not. I try to balance the cartridge/load to the platform it's being used in. I’ve found my little model 445 to be an excellent snubby, and much prefer it to any similar .357 Magnum.

Armor? What armor??? I don't see no armor....

 

[336A]

Acually Elmer Kieth used 17.0 grains of 2400 under his 250gr SWC bullet, not17.5gr. Elmer even says this in one of his articles he wrote which can be found here http://www.elmerkeithshoot.org/GA/1969_01_Elmer_Keith_Favorite_Load.pdf read page 25.

 

[CraigC]

Yes, we both know that it was done in the past. Keith's first book was published in 1936 where he espoused his famous .44Spl loads, among others. However, prudence dictates that we learn from his mistakes and accomplishments and common sense dictates that we do not do as he did and hotrod 100yr old sixguns. It is usually advised that such loads be used only sparingly in modern .44Spl's. Find one of Keith's contemporaries, who are not afraid to test boundaries even today, that suggests the 1200fps load in a Triple-Lock and I will gladly eat my words.

I don't see no armor....

Likewise.

Acually Elmer Kieth used 17.0 grains of 2400 under his 250gr SWC bullet, not17.5gr.

You're right, I was remembering it wrong. Which is a fine example of why you never trust load data found on the internet.

 

[Old Fuff]

Find one of Keith's contemporaries, who are not afraid to test boundaries even today, that suggests the 1200fps load in a Triple-Lock and I will gladly eat my words.

Please note that I said:

All of the Smith & Wesson's .44 Special hand-ejector revolvers were made on that company's large N-frame. Colt offered the Single Action Army and New Service/Shooting Master, both being built on the largest domesticly made big-bore frame. In both cases those made after World War One ...

The triple-lock was discontinued in 1915.

 

[Stainz]

Rant warning.

I love it. Keith's loads - .44 S&W Specials - at 26 kpsi CUP. Nice. Anyone know the SAAMI maximum pressure for a .44 S&W Special? I do... it's greater than the .45 Colt, which is 14 kpsi CUP. It's a whole 15.5 kpsi... not 26 kpsi!

Please - if you want to risk the damage to your firearms, not to mention yourself, that's on you. Please don't post loadings that are above SAAMI spec's for a given cartridge - go to a hotter cartridge, if you need more 'oomph' - but stay within published standards. Life is short as it is - and it's hard to aim anything, if you've lost your vision in a foolish firearm accident. Don't offer further proof for Darwin! Rant off.

Stainz