lobo9er
Member
I ask you your opinion. If "gun show loop hole" is closed its the end of private sales and all transaction would in effect go through ATF to some extent, right?
4473 form step towards registry?
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NavyLCDR
member
Maybe/maybe not. There might be provisions made for private parties to request background investigations for the sale of a firearm.
Don't get me wrong, I am dead set against it, but the "gun show loophole" (which, of course, does not exist) involves selling firearms without a background investigation and that could be countered by providing a private party background check, not neccessiraly involving an FFL and form 4473.
BTW, I do believe the 4473 is the first step towards gun registration.
Don't get me wrong, I am dead set against it, but the "gun show loophole" (which, of course, does not exist) involves selling firearms without a background investigation and that could be countered by providing a private party background check, not neccessiraly involving an FFL and form 4473.
BTW, I do believe the 4473 is the first step towards gun registration.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
I believe this is another false argument we are having. The people backing this would really rather ban everything and this is a step down that path. Yes, I believe a ban on private sales (Or making them not private) is a defacto registration scheme.
Registration = Confication.
Registration = Confication.
Conan1
Member
A dealer told me they have to keep the form for 7 years here in KY. Then the state ?? comes and picks them up and destroys them. Is there any truth to this???
Gungnir
Member
I'd agree too.
Since an FFL is required by law to retain the information about the buyer and the serial number make and model of the Firearm, until the license is no longer renewed. At which time all those records need to be submitted to the ATF.
It's just a very distributed database of all guns sold through an FFL, and the owner who last bought a weapon at an FFL, it might have transferred to several people before coming back to an FFL.
Now, if all private sales have to go through an FFL, then we have a very distributed database of all legal sales of weapons, and current owners. We'd also have historical data on all of the legal owners. If that information is centralized somewhere, then every person's gun would be listed in there, you could find out who owns what, how many they own, what the entire history of that weapons ownership is.
The problem with giving private parties the ability to use NICS (and therefore NCIC) is that it can be abused. Suppose you're applying for a job, who's to say that the company couldn't call NICS and give them your information to find out whether you could buy a gun, gun information isn't transferred to NICS, so all you'd get is a proceed, hold, or denied, but that denied could prevent someone getting a job, for no real reason, they might have a conviction for a felony, ok, would that make them unemployable? or been committed, but they were released, or maybe they have a Restraining Order thats hanging around from an Ex-Wife. None of these may reasonably be expected to cause someone not to gain employment, but people would do it.
So to close the Loophole the only legal feasible way would be to only allow transfers at FFL's, which would then be another piece of the puzzle towards full registration.
YMMV
Since an FFL is required by law to retain the information about the buyer and the serial number make and model of the Firearm, until the license is no longer renewed. At which time all those records need to be submitted to the ATF.
It's just a very distributed database of all guns sold through an FFL, and the owner who last bought a weapon at an FFL, it might have transferred to several people before coming back to an FFL.
Now, if all private sales have to go through an FFL, then we have a very distributed database of all legal sales of weapons, and current owners. We'd also have historical data on all of the legal owners. If that information is centralized somewhere, then every person's gun would be listed in there, you could find out who owns what, how many they own, what the entire history of that weapons ownership is.
The problem with giving private parties the ability to use NICS (and therefore NCIC) is that it can be abused. Suppose you're applying for a job, who's to say that the company couldn't call NICS and give them your information to find out whether you could buy a gun, gun information isn't transferred to NICS, so all you'd get is a proceed, hold, or denied, but that denied could prevent someone getting a job, for no real reason, they might have a conviction for a felony, ok, would that make them unemployable? or been committed, but they were released, or maybe they have a Restraining Order thats hanging around from an Ex-Wife. None of these may reasonably be expected to cause someone not to gain employment, but people would do it.
So to close the Loophole the only legal feasible way would be to only allow transfers at FFL's, which would then be another piece of the puzzle towards full registration.
YMMV
evan price
Member
4473's have to be kept forever according to ATF, and if the FFL closes, they have to be forwarded to ATF.
I'm more worried about the parking lot loophole for used cars. Whatever will I do when I can't sell my own property to someone in exchange for cash?
There's no such thing as a "gun show loophole".
I'm more worried about the parking lot loophole for used cars. Whatever will I do when I can't sell my own property to someone in exchange for cash?
There's no such thing as a "gun show loophole".
mgkdrgn
Member
No. At least not when it comes to the FEDERAL 4473.
They need to keep the 4473 on file, indexed by some method so they can find a specific form upon written request, for 20 years. When they go out of business they turn what ever records they have left over to ATF.
The NICS check done at time of purchase/transfer contains no information about the firearm, just about the purchaser. The only detailed record of the transaction is the 4473, which is retained by the FFL.
KY might have their own forms (I dunno, I'm an FFL in SC) ... but I can assure you they are not carting off boxes of 4473's.
You put your name and address on a form with the serial number of a gun you buy, and that is kept on file if the FFL wants to avoid losing his license for a minor slip-up, or go to prison for a major one. If he gives up his license, or has it revoked, he has to turn in all those files. If the ATF wants to, it can demand to see all those files, in bound books, at any time.
How could that possibly be "registration"?
How could that possibly be "registration"?
dogtown tom
Member
My prediction is that dealer will no longer be a dealer within the next seven years.
Not quite.
This.
NavyLCDR
member
Actually, the statute says that the Attorney General can request all or any part of those records as well. So, if Congress wanted to enact a database type registration of weapons, they could tell the Attorney General to request all those records and the FFLs would have to provide. The President could order the Attorney General to do the same as could the Federal court system.
mgkdrgn
Member
Yes, and then they could hire an army of data entry clerks to spend the rest of their working lives trying to key in all that hand scrawled and mostly out of date useless data. Sounds like as good a use of my tax $'s as most of the other things they have come up with to spend them on lately.
Title 18 U.S.C. § 921 says:
No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established.
My question is if 4473's must be kept by the FFL's, how does this not violate this provision? By my understanding, the requirement for FFL's to keep 4473's IS registration.
Any comments?
No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established.
My question is if 4473's must be kept by the FFL's, how does this not violate this provision? By my understanding, the requirement for FFL's to keep 4473's IS registration.
Any comments?
mgkdrgn
Member
Well, the records =required= have to be kept =somewhere=, don't they? If they aren't kept, they aren't records. Also, FFL's are not Federal employees (at least I haven't been getting any checks!), and they don't own or manage my place of business.
"Registration" to me means something that can be easily/quickly referenced (as in within minutes), and is required to be current data. 4473's held by FFL's are neither. They are historical records of particular transactions and are, for all intent and purposes, out of date by the time the ink is dry on them as a "current" record.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
^ THe reason they are out of date by the time the ink dries is due to the option of private party sales.
If ALL sales were forced to be FFL / 4473 then you could easily track the gun just like a registration would.
Also, you have to keep a bound book, you face the "penalty" of law if you do not. The Government has the right to review your book uppon request. If you go out of business you have to do what with your bound book?
Dont think that a mandatory 4473 check for private party sales would increase your sales volume. My hunch is that people would not abide by it and keep what they have prior to any such law. There would become another catagory of firearms "Preban or Pre-Registration".
If ALL sales were forced to be FFL / 4473 then you could easily track the gun just like a registration would.
Also, you have to keep a bound book, you face the "penalty" of law if you do not. The Government has the right to review your book uppon request. If you go out of business you have to do what with your bound book?
Dont think that a mandatory 4473 check for private party sales would increase your sales volume. My hunch is that people would not abide by it and keep what they have prior to any such law. There would become another catagory of firearms "Preban or Pre-Registration".
Modern computers can read hand-written information, particularly when there is data that can be corrected using readily-available databases of names and addresses. The Post Office does it all the time. Wake up. This isn't the 1970s.
They don't pay you, and they don't own your business. They just decide whether or not you have a business, and they can walk in whenever they want, and go through your records. An FFL does work for the Federal government -- for free. Is it the demands of the free market that make you spend your time and money on 4473 forms? The Feds get the best of both worlds: FFLs do work for them, and FFLs get charged for the privelege.
Also "Not quite." All the info on form 4473 is entered in an FFL bound book which is NOT destroyed after 20 years. The bound book is turned over to the ATF when the license is no longer renewed.
And yes, I think form 4473 is a step toward registration.
I guess its a paradox. I wonder if whoever wrote it didn't realize the contradicting provisions or didn't care. Oh well, I guess I don't understand it, 'cause I'm no lawyer.
Well the part that really bothers me is where it says:
nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established.
Seems like a de facto system of registration to me
Well the part that really bothers me is where it says:
nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established.
Seems like a de facto system of registration to me
dogtown tom
Member
Not true.
ATF is limited by law to one unannounced compliance inspection per year, during your normal business hours.
If ATF needs information on a SPECIFIC transaction or transactions by a specific customer, pursuant to a criminal investigation, the FFL is required by law to provide that information within 24 hours.
"the legal ground they stand on for 4473 forms is interstate trade. if you do a face to face in state the federal government has much less legal ground to stand on for regulating sales."
Where have you been??? For decades now, the central government has claimed that EVERYTHING affects interstate commerce, therefore, they can regulate it.
And where are people getting this idea that the ATF (or any other government agency) is "bound by law", and they never do anything that they are not authorized to do???? They do whatever they want. Whatever they can get away with.
Where have you been??? For decades now, the central government has claimed that EVERYTHING affects interstate commerce, therefore, they can regulate it.
And where are people getting this idea that the ATF (or any other government agency) is "bound by law", and they never do anything that they are not authorized to do???? They do whatever they want. Whatever they can get away with.
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mljdeckard
Member
This is why a few states (including Utah) are writing legislation to challenge the federal government's claim of jurisdiction over all guns based on the interstate commerce clause.
mgkdrgn
Member
Um, ya, right, in theory. However, if you could come up with a practical working system that could "read" 20 year old hand written paper forms with say, 80% accuracy, you could make a fortune. Then the army of clerks could spend the rest of their working lives editing every single record to fix the 20% error rate. And that "post office database" is where they "think" people are -now-, not where they were 20 years ago. And I'm well aware it's not the 70's ... that is when I -started- working in IT. (Thats' my other gig, also independent business)
I don't work for the Feds any more than I work for the State of SC, or the County of Lexington, or the City of Lexington, or the IRS ... all of which requires nearly as much paperwork as a retailer as the Feds do as a gun dealer. It's all part of the "joy" of being in business for yourself, but it sure as h311 beats working in "cubeville".
Bailey Guns
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I don't worry about the ATF doing something sinister with the old 4473s.
Last year (2008) in Sep I mailed several boxes of 4473s to the ATF since I went out of business.
On 3 separate occasions I've had the ATF tracing center call me to conduct a trace on a firearm...the last time was about 1 month ago. I told the guy I had already sent my forms to ATF, that I'd informed the other ATF personnel who'd previously called I'd already sent in the forms, and that I couldn't help him. His response was, "Oh, OK. I guess I can close out this request. We'll never find that form now."
It reminded me of that Indiana Jones movie where, at the end, the box containg the Ark of the Covenant was being placed inside that big gov't warehouse... Actually gave me kind of a warm, fuzzy feeling.
So, I don't know what happens after the ATF gets the out-of-business records...but it sounds like they're in a safe place.
Last year (2008) in Sep I mailed several boxes of 4473s to the ATF since I went out of business.
On 3 separate occasions I've had the ATF tracing center call me to conduct a trace on a firearm...the last time was about 1 month ago. I told the guy I had already sent my forms to ATF, that I'd informed the other ATF personnel who'd previously called I'd already sent in the forms, and that I couldn't help him. His response was, "Oh, OK. I guess I can close out this request. We'll never find that form now."
It reminded me of that Indiana Jones movie where, at the end, the box containg the Ark of the Covenant was being placed inside that big gov't warehouse... Actually gave me kind of a warm, fuzzy feeling.
So, I don't know what happens after the ATF gets the out-of-business records...but it sounds like they're in a safe place.
mgkdrgn
Member
EXACTLY!
I just recently "escaped" to South Carolina after spending 25+ years in the DC area working with all kinds of federal government agencies. I can assure you that there is practically NOTHING that the Feds do that isn't done, in what would be anywhere else be, a criminally negligent manner. These people couldn't find their collective a$$es with both hand and a GPS.
The sun will burn itself out LONG before they could turn 4473's into any type of effective "registration".
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