4473. Permanent or not?

[jim in Anchorage]

I have heard many conflicting story's on this. That they are destroyed after a certain period of time as per law. And that the BATF was [is] illegally keeping them.
What made me think of this was a incident 1-2 years ago when someone drove from out of state and killed 2 NYC cops.
The press all seemed to know the gun was sold, new, from some gun shop in 1990. So if they destroy 4473's how would that be known?

 

[lilguy]

I think they are kept forever. That's how they trace guns from the starting point. I was told by a home based FFL I know that when he retires his license he's required to turn his records over to the BATFE. Let the lawyers here correct me please.

 

[TimSr]

Unless something has changed since I had my FFL in the 90's, the dealer must keep them as long as he is doing business, and when he ceases to do business, be must turn them into the ATF. I don't know the requirements for what the ATF does with them.

 

[steveno]

I believe after 20 years a gun shop can start throwing them away. when they go out of business they have to send the ones they have to the atf along with their bound books

 

[gopguy]

ATF puts them on a computer in Morgantown WV.

 

[MErl]

The business must hold them for 20 years and after that can (not must) destroy them. If the ATF gets a copy for any reason (gun trace, FFL expires, etc) they will hold them forever.

There are reports of the ATF showing up at FFLs with copiers during inspections or summarily copying the electronic versions. Let me see if I can find those here.

It is the BG check record that is destroyed within 72 hours. The 4473 lingers, the original Red Dawn movie even had a quip about it. It is safe to work with the premise that the 4473 is a permanent registry. It is just very slow to use because it is so distributed and incomplete as it only covers FFLs (and manufacturers).

Edit - The post here discussing copying records from Pac N Arms
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=737291

 

[yugorpk]

Ive had calls for gun traces from 15 years ago and thats after I turned in all my books and 4473's 7-8 years ago. I think they just go into the Indiana Jones warehouse when they get sent in to the ATF. I don't give the feds any credit for being organized or being able to handle computerized systems past what was available in 1988..

 

[elano]

It was illegal for the GOVT to create a database of gun sales. It's explicitly written in the 1984 law. At least that was my understanding, however some say the ATF is illegally creating a database. I am no expert, just average joe.

 

[Sam1911]

The press all seemed to know the gun was sold, new, from some gun shop in 1990. So if they destroy 4473's how would that be known?

That part's easy. If they have the gun they know who made it, what model it is, and a serial number. They call the manufacturer. The manufacturer looks it up and says, "Yeah, we made that gun in 1988 and sold it to Big Northeast Gun Distributors. Then the cops call BNGDistributors who looks at their records and says "Yeah, we got that gun in a shipment in early 1989 and we sold it to Billy Bob's Gun Retailers in Syracuse, NY in January of 1990."

Bingo, they know what shop sold that gun, and about when.

Further, it is entirely possible that the dealer might still have those records. (Doesn't have to, but could.) Dealer can then look that up and say, "Sold that gun in March 1990 to Jim Smith from here in Syracuse."

And then they could call Jim Smith, if they can find him, and keep on tracing that way.

Now, few cases really require that sort of tracing because unless the police find a gun at a crime scene and have no idea who had it, and its serial number isn't recorded in the stolen gun database as missing from whatever owner last had it... they don't need to go to all that effort. If they've got a suspect and a firearm and a body and his prints on the gun or other evidence that he fired it, proving that it was his becomes a moot point.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Good write up Sam. As I get your post the gun is recorded from manufacture, to distributer then to the mom&pop gunshop I buy it from.

But the point is can the Gov store 4473's? I don't think so.
But it appears from the evidence they are useing proxy's to do just that.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, sure the government can store 4473s. They do all the time, in massive numbers. Any time a gun shop closes, any 4473s that aren't over 20 years old go to the BATFE and they get stored. Any time there's some other reason for digging into the records of an FFL, those 4473s get stored. And it seems they're working on computerizing them now so they maybe someday won't just be gigantic piles of boxes of papers sitting in a warehouse like the last scene of "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark."

They cannot create a registry of firearms or firearms owners. But they can and do store some 4473 forms as they get them. Somewhere there is a wide grey line where the difference between the two gets fuzzy.

 

[.452]

I think they are kept forever. That's how they trace guns from the starting point. I was told by a home based FFL I know that when he retires his license he's required to turn his records over to the BATFE. Let the lawyers here correct me please.

The turning over of the FFL BOOK is fact, I had to. Plus during a routine 3 day inspection of the FFL BOOK by an agent, and since I had to list all the guns on the premises in the BOOK including my own, they found one of my own handguns had been stolen and I had to find it and turn it in.

The theft was reported way back in the 1960's pre 1968, which is when I took it on trade from a street cop.

At this point in time I feel way better off and have more freedom as a private citizen than when I was FFL.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Well, sure the government can store 4473s. They do all the time, in massive numbers. Any time a gun shop closes, any 4473s that aren't over 20 years old go to the BATFE and they get stored. Any time there's some other reason for digging into the records of an FFL, those 4473s get stored. And it seems they're working on computerizing them now so they maybe someday won't just be gigantic piles of boxes of papers sitting in a warehouse like the last scene of "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark."

They cannot create a registry of firearms or firearms owners. But they can and do store some 4473 forms as they get them. Somewhere there is a wide grey line where the difference between the two gets fuzzy.

Well as I said they are useing proxys but not directly storing 4373's. It's just a way to work around the law. If I tell you must record all 4473's and I have the rigbt to bust in and look at them, is that not the same as possessing them?

 

[ofitg]

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/pr/national-tracing-center-ntc


Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) that discontinue business are required by law to send all firearms transaction records to the NTC. Out-of-business records are integral in the firearms tracing process. The NTC receives an average of 1.2 million out-of-business records per month. Since 1968, ATF has received several hundred million such records. ATF's Out-of-Business Records repository is the only one of its kind in the world.


...

 

[dogtown tom]

lilguy I think they are kept forever.

Nope.
The licensee may destroy 4473's after twenty years.
If he goes out of business, all his records (including bound book) are turned over to ATF.
They keep them in a cave.

gopguy ATF puts them on a computer in Morgantown WV.

Nope.

MErl ...It is the BG check record that is destroyed within 72 hours.

Results of FBI NICS background checks resulting in a "Proceed" are deleted at the close of the business day (midnight Central time).....not 72 hours.

Delayed transactions are held until the background check status is changed to a Proceed or Deny. Denied background check information is kept permanently.

yugorpk ..... I think they just go into the Indiana Jones warehouse when they get sent in to the ATF. I don't give the feds any credit for being organized or being able to handle computerized systems past what was available in 1988..

Nailed it.

elano It was illegal for the GOVT to create a database of gun sales. It's explicitly written in the 1984 law. At least that was my understanding, however some say the ATF is illegally creating a database.

Correct. That's why ATF simply stores all the old 4473's instead of entering them into a database.

They seem to believe that prohibition does not include a database on Multiple Sales of Handguns and Multiple Sales of Certain Rifles as soon as they get the form from the dealer.

jim ...But the point is can the Gov store 4473's? I don't think so.

Yes, it can.

.452 .... Plus during a routine 3 day inspection of the FFL BOOK by an agent, and since I had to list all the guns on the premises in the BOOK including my own, they found one of my own handguns had been stolen and I had to find it and turn it in.

ATF IOI's don't run guns through NCIC to see if they were stolen. A compliance inspection is only to make sure your inventory, 4473's and bound book are in compliance.

jim in Anchorage Well as I said they are useing proxys but not directly storing 4373's. It's just a way to work around the law. If I tell you must record all 4473's and I have the rigbt to bust in and look at them, is that not the same as possessing them?

The gun Control Act allows ATF to store out of business records. There is no "work around" there.

Further, they don't "bust in" unless they have a search warrant and probable cause that the dealer has committed a crime. When ATF requests a firearms trace they are so rude as to actually call me on the phone.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I think that last post pretty much covers the ground. If anyone has any new, relevant information he thinks should be added, please let me know by PM; and I'll consider re-opening the thread.