45-70 field expedient reloading

[MeekandMild]

I have been wondering about whether one could reload 45-70 in the field using Pyrodex and .45 caliber sabots. That way if they were 'way up in the mountains elk hunting the only reloading tools they would need would be a deprimer and a priming tool. Some decdes ago I read a story, (maybe from Zane Grey?) about a hunter who reloaded his 45-70 while living in the wild. He used cast lead bullets greased with bear fat IIRC.

 

[30Cal]

The Lyman 310 tool has been around for a hundred years.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/dies.htm

 

[Onmilo]

And don't forget the Lee hand tool.
A nylon hammer, a bullet mould, lead, powder and primers is all you would need to be really basic and get the job done.
Bear fat and beeswax makes a decent, if smelly, bullet lube and you can use plain bear grease as a case lube.

 

[mainmech48]

The Lyman 310 tool, definitely. Used one as a kid to reload .38 S&W for a beat-up Lend Lease "Victory" model. Kinda tedious and slow, but you can pack the whole works around without being overloaded. Be aware though that this outfit uses non-standard dies, so it's best purchased as a caliber specific set.

While I suppose that one could use Pyrodex pellets, my guess is that it would kinda limit your load options. Personally, I'd use Pyrodex R or similar and a volumetric measure. Taking some fiber overpowder wads along would be a good idea too, IMO.

Don't know if saboted bullets would work or not. It'd depend on rifing twist rate, etc. being compatible. Cast bullets would be the way to go, IMO. Don't know how well sabots would feed through a repeater's mechanism either. IIWY, it'd be something I'd want to test thoroughly before I went all Jeremiah Johnson.

 

[steveno]

My uncle got me started reloading 303 British with a 310 tool when I was 15 years old. the only real problem was priming with Berdan primers which gives you a real sense of touch and scares the hell out of you when you seat the primer to deep. primers are really loud when you aren't expecting any noise at all

 

[Edward429451]

I've a buddy who's been reloading 45/70 for years without anything. He has two single shots. He punches out the primer with a punch & hammer, seats a new primer against a table, and (IIRC) just fills it to the rim of the case with BP and scrapes it level with a card and finally seats the bullet with his thumb.

How's that for field expediant?

For the naysayers....No I have no proof, I've never seen him do it. But I've known him so long and he's such a good guy that I'm sure he's not lieing.

Don't quote me on the powder charge! dunno how many ffff BP he uses either.

 

[Malamute]

I don't think you'd be gaining anything to use black or pyrodex over smokeless powder. I use the 310 tools sometimes, and used to use one exclusively for a Winchester 86 many years ago. I took a lee powder measure set, and took a couple of the dippers in the charge range I used, wrote down the weights they throw of different powders and put them in the box with the tool.

OK, why would you want to load in the hills? Are you going to live out there full time, or just spend some time out? For about the same bulk and weight you can just take more loaded ammo with you. I like to take some small game loads for any rifle I have out, but wouldn't take a loader out unless I was going to be there for months on end . You could take a years supply of ammo about as easy as the components. For even less weight you can take a good 22 pistol to make camp meat.

Don't mean to be negative, just thinking it through. I've thought about this same thing, and concluded that just taking some more ammo is the easiest way to cope

 

[telewinz]

For the naysayers....No I have no proof, I've never seen him do it. But I've known him so long and he's such a good guy that I'm sure he's not lieing.

It's easy enough to do and works fine with a single shot. Instead of lubing the bullet why not paper patch it? I used everything from masking tape to cigarette paper. Recoil is the only problem if you fire them in a lever action (magazine), the bullets will pop right out. Old time hunters (19th century) seldom resided their cases or bullets.

 

[Edward429451]

Hmmm, all I've ever seen my buddy with was full size jacketed slugs.

What's the deal with paper patching anyway? Replaces the lube, or for undersize bullets or what? Forgive my ignorance, I've just never seen it done and am grey on the why.

 

[Jim K]

Let me see. The intrepid hunter carries a tong tool with dies, a bullet mold, powder, primers, either bullets or lead to make bullets, and a lubricant.

Wouldn't it be easier to just carry the same weight in ammo already loaded, which should be enough for any reasonable wilderness stay?

Or am I missing all the fun of doing things the hard way.

Jim

 

[MeekandMild]

OK, why would you want to load in the hills? Are you going to live out there full time, or just spend some time out?

Well, to tell the truth, since I moved to the country I've had to work 70+ hours per week on my day job and then fill in the rest of the time mending fences, grading dirt, bush-hogging, tending to chickens et cetera so all my reloading stuff is neatly boxed away and stored in the back of the basement. It would be nice to have an easy way of reloading 45-70. No more no less. I read the cowboy story more than 30 years ago and have forgotten the details.

I lke the idea of sabots because they are not at all as messy as greased bullets. Paper patching IIRC had to be soaked in nitre to work right and had to be done with a minie ball didn't it? The Lyman 310 plus a set of dies costs right at $110 after shipping. So far, Edward's buddy seems to have the best idea of all of the ones presented so far.

 

[Malamute]

Sounds a bit high for a 310 set. I may have a set soon that will be available. (might try E-bay also)Also check with a guy that has a shop called"the 310 shop", he lists in the "gun list" frequently. He may have a decent used set. If you buy comercial cast bullets they are usually lubed with a lube that is pretty clean to handle. Not as good as the old Alox (not the new liquid) or SPG, but servicable. I think the sabots will give a different point of impact and performance than regular bullets.

Paper patched bullets are patched dry. The reason was to use a pure lead bullet for some expansion. The patch wasn't treated, you may be thinking of paper cartridges for muzzle loaders, or for percussion Sharps rifles.

If you are going to use your loads in a single shot, you can probably get by without much loading gear. If for a lever or other repeater, then you will want, at some point, to size the caes, and at least be able to crimp. For an economy loader, the Lee loader(hammer type) is tough to beat. I like the Lyman tool better, but you can make decent ammo with the Lee. They are about $20 I think.

The Lee powder measure set, the dippers, work pretty well. I wouldn't use them for a max load in a high intensity cartridge, but for anything in a 45/70 they are fine, so no need for a scale. the Lee loaders come with a dipper for a general range of powder in factory equivalent loads.

The guy that loads black without tools would likely have a case cut off for a measure. you can't get black to compress that much with your thumb, and I seriously doubt even with a press without damaging the bullet trying to seat it. (yes, I've loaded a few hundred black powder cartridges in the past)

Good luck, and don't work so much!

Just thought of something else. Do you have regular dies for 45/70? If you do(or if you want to get some), Huntington makes a compact press that uses regular dies. It can be used "in hand", or has a flange that can be clamped or screwed to a table. They are about $50 I believe. Their web site should have the info. With it, you can make the same quality ammo as with a bench press , as you are using the same dies.

 

[Brian Williams]

Get a Lee handloader

a set of dies or just a decapping die and shell holder


You could also use a priming tool with the hand press



Some sort of measure and a bunch of bullets and a bunch of powder




With this setup someone and a handgun caliber could go for quite a while.
with 45/70 and a single shot with no need to full length resize...

 

[Edward429451]

The guy that loads black without tools would likely have a case cut off for a measure. you can't get black to compress that much with your thumb, and I seriously doubt even with a press without damaging the bullet trying to seat it. (yes, I've loaded a few hundred black powder cartridges in the past)

You may be right about that or maybe he even uses a measure cause he's got BP rifles too. Now that I think about it, I think he said he's using a different charge for different weight bullets. I'll ask him when he gets back from vacation.

 

[telewinz]

The paper patch wrapped around the bullet replaces any lube. Commonly used with the Sharps rifle to enhance accuracy. It requires a generous throat. I did it on occasion with my Martini-Henry, besides the cartridge really looks neat

 

[Edward429451]

Aha! Would beat having lube melt in your pocket/pack though huh?

Thanks man, learn sumpin new everyday.

 

[Malamute]

Paper patching is a bit of an art. The bullets are smooth, and cast to a size that allows for the thickness of the patch. I've heard of people using regular bullets for paper patching, but the old time Buffalo hunters and target shooters used the smooth bullets made especially for paper patching. The paper is cut with a pattern in a trapazoid (?) shape ( a long leanining diamond shape) and wrapped on so that it gets 2 wraps, and the edge is in a spiral around the bullet (It looks somewhat like a Barber pole). It's hard to explain, but if you saw a picture it would make sense.

The Buffalo slaughter was a dark page in our history, but the Buffalo hunters were some interesting characters, and took long range hunting and field shooting to new levels. Some of them were outstanding rifle shots. A man that hunted and partnered with the hunter Jim White told of watching White shooting Mule deer for market meat at 500 yards with an iron (tang peep) sighted Sharps rifle, and making repeated kills at that range. I read some other rather interesting accounts of hunts, and Indian fights, some at rather extended ranges, in a book called "Getting a Stand". Some of the hunters shot tens of thousands of rounds in their hide hunting careers.