.45-70 v. 12 ga slug

[AStone]

...page 2...

...every student got hits on 20" steel at 300yds
and none of these guns were particularly special.
They were all stock Remington 870 barrels.

As an 870 owner,
I'm beaming with pride/excitement about that.

Having said that, I still think the .45-70 would be better for your purposes.

The Marlin 1895G in .45/70 does seem like a very nice gun,
and a worthy companion to the aforementioned 870...

 

[kieran]

The .450 Marlin is just the equivalant of the hot-loaded .45-70s available without the flexibility.

i dont understand how you can claim 'without the flexibility'. you can load 45-70 ammo into a 450 marlin chambered-rifle and shoot it just fine.

Marlin created the 450 Marlin to take advantage of the improvements in receiver strength. the two cartridges share exactly the same internal dimensions, but because SAAMI 'allow' you to load a 450 marlin to higher operating pressures, it has a big magnumesque belt near the base to prevent idiots from loading it into their 45-70, which may not be strong enough to handle it safely.

think of it like a 357mag / 38 special sort of setup. flexibility aplenty.

 

[Car Knocker]

i dont understand how you can claim 'without the flexibility'.

A much wider range of off-the-shelf ammunition is available for the .45-70 than for the .450 Marlin; from 300 gr HP to 500 gr FMJFN. Commercial black powder loads reach into the 550 gr range, depending on alloy.

 

[kieran]

A much wider range of off-the-shelf ammunition is available for the .45-70 than for the .450 Marlin; from 300 gr HP to 500 gr FMJFN. Commercial black powder loads reach into the 550 gr range, depending on alloy.

you seem to have missed the bit about being able to load+fire 45-70 ammo in a rifle chambered for 450 marlin ...

 

[redneck2]

I have an 1895 Marlin .45-70 and an 870 12 gauge deer gun with a rifled barrel.

I hit a moving coyote at 140 yards a few years ago with the 870, so I think that covers the accuracy part of the equation. Sabots make a very accurate and extremely powerful combination.

While either would be adequate, if they were side by side in the safe, I'd pick up the 12 gauge first. The power of a 3" Remington copper solid has to be seen to be appreciated. Some new sabots exceed 1,900 fps IIRC.

As with many other debates here, we get too wrapped up in caliber wars instead of results. If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.

 

[BobMcG]

Having stated you already own the 12ga, I say go right ahead and get yourself the .45-70. It's a tad handier for a bit more extended range game hunting. And by all means, do yourself another favor and handload for it.

 

[Car Knocker]

you seem to have missed the bit about being able to load+fire 45-70 ammo in a rifle chambered for 450 marlin ...

I look at it with a reloader's eye - I imagine that the belted area would cause the .45-70 brass to expand and most sizing dies would not be able to resize that area of the case, not to mention the weakening of the case in that area. By the way, does Marlin endorse the use of .45-70 ammo in the .450 Marlin rifles and are these rifles throated for 500+ grain loads?

 

[kieran]

By the way, does Marlin endorse the use of .45-70 ammo in the .450 Marlin rifles and are these rifles throated for 500+ grain loads?

for a reloader, I'd agree. if you're certain of the strength of your gun, 45-70 is a 'better' choice. otherwise i'd suggest the 450 for someone who doesnt reload, if they want that higher power rating.

to my knowledge, Marlin havent discouraged people from shooting 45-70 through 450Marlin chambers. i dont know about throat dimensions -- i'd not be surprised if they leaned to a longer OAL, however.

 

[mete]

You can get some very potent 45-70 loads from people like Garrett or Buffalo Bore. They work very well. You can also get some very potent and accurate 12 ga loads like the Winchester Partition . So either one will do the job if you can place the bullet accurately .Get a dog to warn you !!

 

[roscoe]

As with many other debates here, we get too wrapped up in caliber wars instead of results. If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Buffalo Bore has a 430 grain load at 1925 fps and a 500 grain load at 1625. I imagine that 500 grain load penetrates some.

Time to call Box O'Truth!

 

[kutenay]

I'm new here and live in B.C. as well as the NWT and northern AB, I have also visited Alaska and the Yukon. I used to work, solo, in Grizzly country for extended periods without relief and also supervise large forestry projects in Grizzly country. I have had about 60 encounters with Grizzlies and have seen about a dozen killed with various guns.

I have and do own/use both and now carry 2.75" Brennekes in my Benelli Nova Turkey gun and in my Merkel drilling in 12x12-9.3x74R; I also have a '70s vintage Marlin 1895 with "ghost ring" sights and a Browning 1886 SRC repro with "ghost ring" sights as well, both .45-70.

I load Swift AF-400 grs. in the Browning to about 1850 fps. and Kodiak bonded 400s in the Marlin to about the same velocity. I find these easy to pack on my backpack all day, but, harder to shoot well than my P-64s in .338 Win. or .375 H&H. So, while I do prefer the .45-70 over the 12, I have no qualms about using the 12 WITH Brennekes only and this is usually a less expensive way to go.

My coming favourite for packing in bear country is the ancient 9.3x62 in a CRF rifle, I have two pre-war Mauser sporters so chambered and love them. With the 286 NP, I get about 2400 fps-mv and this is, IMO, the best option of all for dealing with bears. I have shot lots of heavier cals., but, the weight of a .458 or .416 needed to offset recoil when apcking it in mountain country is too much, IMO. I think that a CZ-550 in 9.3x62 with a few mods is the best option here, if, you want to consider something other than the 12 or .45-70.

 

[danang]

Between the two, .45-70. Hard cast lead 400 grain gas check at 1900 fps will do the job. The .45-70 was made to penetrate the pony and the savage hiding/riding on the other side.

 

[Cosmoline]

If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.

That's comparing a cowboy load with a modern magnum slug. Both platforms offer hardcast loads that will deliver 3,000 ft. lbs. or more, though the 12 ga. loses speed considerably faster. For bear defense, it's Brennke (NOT Foster, NOT home defense and NOT HP) hardcast slugs or heavy hardcast magnum loads.

 

[Any Cal.]

Just to stir things up, in my brief test, I got much more penetration from a .44 Mag 300g hardcast at 1370 fps than 600g brenneke hardcast slugs in a spruce log. The brenneke stopped in a 6 in log @20 yds, the 4 .44 slugs blitzed through it. It is a limited test, but I prefer the .44 hardcast.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's odd. I've seen Brenneke hardcasts blow clear through several spruce logs in a row. In fact they're my favorite tree feller for when the chainsaw isn't working. I think a more scientific and documented testing is required to declare a .44 Magnum slug the winner in that fight.

 

[JShirley]

Either should be fine- .45-70 lever w/ good, deeply penetrating ammo, or 870 loaded with Brennekes.

I planned on using my Mossberg 500 GR w/ Brennekes for close bear defence, but am getting a .35 Whelen 7600 that I think will work for close to intermediate bear work. For dedicated hunting, I would use my Territorial Outfitters .35 Whelen bolt gun.

John

 

[ETXhiker]

Well, if you can't bring the firearm into action in a second or two, then it *IS* too much gun.

Cosmoline, an iron sighted .375 comes up about as quick as anything. Don't know what your point is.

 

[Cosmoline]

Bears can run faster than Jesse Owens, that's my point. Let's say you have a CZ 550 Magnum in H&H. How would you be carrying it? How fast can you have it up and firing from that carrying position? These are critical considerations for a bear defense rifle. A huge magnum may prove useless in a charge situation if you have it slung around you with nothing in the chamber. I prefer a lighter rifle or shotgun, and carry them hot either in my hands, in a backpack scabbard or slug across the front with a quick release mechanism. Either a slug gun or a big bore Marlin levergun can be stowed so it can be presented with great speed and minimal messing around. Larger hunting rifles, even with iron sights, tend to be slower on the uptake and harder to tote around in your hands or resting on your shoulder.

 

[AStone]

Either a slug gun or a big bore Marlin levergun can be stowed so it can be presented with great speed and minimal messing around. Larger hunting rifles, even with iron sights, tend to be slower on the uptake and harder to tote around in your hands or resting on your shoulder.

Um, hmm.

What he said.

From African carry to fire position,
my 870P requires much less than a second.

 

[Koobuh]

For purely defensive use, a slug gun wins.
It's lighter, fires a larger slug, and is easier to bring to bear (har ).
Also:
Why on earth would you be shooting over 100 yards at a bear for defensive reasons?
There is no scenario I can think of where it would mean certain death to not fire at a bear at a greater distance.
Beyond 100 yards you're better off just leaving the area if a bear is being threatening. Just because you 'feel' threatened doesn't mean you can justify downing an apex predator at a non life-threatening range to a game officer- an important consideration many here don't seem to think about.

 

[AStone]

Why on earth would you be shooting over 100 yards at a bear for defensive reasons?

Indeed, there is reasonable evidence that even at 10 yards, if you don't look directly at the bear, and just let him/her do his own thing in a non-threatening "you're in control here, I'm just passing through" kind of way, then you won't need to shoot at all.

It's all about staying cool.

Mind you, if one comes into the tent at night, unannounced, then it's likely that a slug gets loosed.

Otherwise, I'm OK with some boundary games, and am willing to live and let live.

 

[12GA00buck]

I carry a 12GA pump loaded with slugs, mostly for the versatility of having shot shells for small game. If you kill a bear is self-defense, you have to skin it and turn the hide into the Alaska department of fish and game. Bear spray has proven very effective. I typically carry both. I plan to use the pepper spray first. If, (very small chance), it doesn’t work, then I resort to slugs. I've seen a few old timers carrying 45/70's, so I trust there also effective. A well placed shot with proper loads from a 45/70, slug gun, or 30-06 will be effective. A poorly placed shot with a .460 weatherby will not. Listen to the magnum hype with a skeptical ear. Remember, Jack O' Conner killed no less than 8 brown bears with a 30-06. The Alaska Department of Fish and game is an excellent resource for bear safety and firearm choice.

 

[FLtoAK05]

shotgun slugs

I can't find where Brenneke has a "Hardcast" slug, only find where it says solid lead, which in my opinion is not hardcast, can you direct me to information to reflect such. I have used "Dixie Slugs" and feel very confident with them, the information provided from them is quite impressive. I'd hunt dangerous game with them anytime. JMHO.

WWW.Dixieslugs.com

 

[FLtoAK05]

shotgun slugs

I can't find where Brenneke has a "Hardcast" slug, only find where it says solid lead, which in my opinion is not hardcast, can you direct me to information to reflect such. I have used "Dixie Slugs" and feel very confident with them, the information provided from them is quite impressive. I'd hunt dangerous game with them anytime. JMHO.

WWW.Dixieslugs.com


gave a bad link I think......try it now.

Sorry about the double post.

 

[Loanshark]

Between the two I don't think you're really giving up much either way you go. I'd probably grab my marlin 1895 gg first if those were my only choices.

That being said I've never met up with a grizz before I've only read about encounters. What I have read is in a large amount of surprise encounters it's a pistol that saves the day. My guess is it's due to the quick handling and availability of the pistol over a longgun.

Based on the stuff I've read if I was going to spend time in Grizz/moose country not deliberatly hunting for either I'd have a .44magnum in a holster on my belt. I might also bring my .45-70 or 12 ga., but I think the sidearm may actually be more important/ better for defence. I'd even take my .45ACP rather than go with only a longgun.

JMHO