45/70 vs 50/70

[BJung]

I'm trying to decide which BP cartridge to choose. Your opinions and biases would be greatly appreciated. I have been looking at the Swedish rolling M67 rolling block in 12.17. I'd like a rifle with a good bore that will group well and am willing to trim 50/70 brass for it. But, if the chamber is worn at then I'll have it enlarged to a 50/70. I want to shoot it. Either way, the round is close to a 50/70 or would become one. The other rolling block is an 8mm. If I want shoot an 8mm, I'll buy a Mauser. I'd look for a decent looking rifle and convert it to a 45/70. With either cartridge, if I can group well at 100, I'll try farther. I might even consider butchering the stock and installing vernier aperture sights. My impression is that they improve accuracy. My question is whether a 45/70 is superior to a 50/70 between 100-200 yards for accuracy? Would you choose 45cal vs 50cal and why. Would you use the standard military sights or upgrade? Thanks.

 

[ClemBert]

Sorry for the dumb question but what model Mauser?

 

[BJung]

Sorry for the dumb question but what model Mauser?

None in particular. I don't own a mauser and the military mausers are said to be chambered in 8mm. I'd rather shoot a larger .45 or 50 cal bullet if it's a rolling block than an 8mm.

 

[ClemBert]

Right, my Mauser model 98 shoots 8x57mm.

 

[JeffG]

Who is going to do the gunsmithing? 45/70 or 50/70, you will need a proper barrel. For hunting and target I think the 45/70 is the most versatile, and easiest to find ammo and components for. The bore diameter, the fact that it is a different rim and cartridge, all have to be addressed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.17×42mm_RF

 

[dave951]

I'm trying to decide which BP cartridge to choose. Your opinions and biases would be greatly appreciated. I have been looking at the Swedish rolling M67 rolling block in 12.17. I'd like a rifle with a good bore that will group well and am willing to trim 50/70 brass for it. But, if the chamber is worn at then I'll have it enlarged to a 50/70. I want to shoot it. Either way, the round is close to a 50/70 or would become one. The other rolling block is an 8mm. If I want shoot an 8mm, I'll buy a Mauser. I'd look for a decent looking rifle and convert it to a 45/70. With either cartridge, if I can group well at 100, I'll try farther. I might even consider butchering the stock and installing vernier aperture sights. My impression is that they improve accuracy. My question is whether a 45/70 is superior to a 50/70 between 100-200 yards for accuracy? Would you choose 45cal vs 50cal and why. Would you use the standard military sights or upgrade? Thanks.

My roller is a Swede. The 12.7x44r is very, very close to 50/70. In fact some of the worn chambers will actually accept a 50/70. The issue you'll face is rifling. It's deep and slow twist. I could only get marginal accuracy out of mine till I had it relined by Bobby Hoyt. Now when my rifle was at Bobby's we talked about making it a 45/70/90. I opted to stay with the 50/70 for ... reasons. I already have a 45/70 and since it's a Siamese Mauser, I don't want to even risk an ammo swap for any reason. So, don't be disappointed if you have to have the bore attended to.

Accuracy between 4570 and 5070? Out to 200yd, flip a coin. From 500 out, the nod will probably go to the 45/70. Not to say the 50/70 is a slouch but without some help in bullet design dept, the 45 will shed velocity slower. I have a custom bullet mold from NOE that was originally intended for an 1858 Smith but through some experimentation, I've found that this may well be the bullet for my 50/70.

Sights, by all means change them. I like Lee Shavers. They give up nothing to MVA other than finish. My roller has a long range Soule, Hadley eye cup, front globe with spirit level (VERY important)

 

[RWMC]

You can purchase cartridge cases for the Swedish 12.17 from Buffalo arms company.
I own and shoot both .45-70 & .50-70 trapdoors. Both .45 & .50 calibers are now tough to find supplies for ( primers, powder, & brass.). If you don’t cast your own bullets, you may want to consider doing so ($)
Whatever you choose for caliber or firearm, after you begin shooting it, you will discover how fun they are. Learn how to properly clean your black powder firearm & brass cases.

 

[BJung]

Thanks for the heads up on Swedish cases. I assume the 45/70 and 50/70 cases take large rifle primers so I'm okay I think. Is Black powder next to impossible to find? I already cast and have a supply of pure lead and lead with 2% tin. Do BP cartridge shooters tend to use gas checks or paper patch? A one cavity mold and a good ladle might be a good idea. As for bullet weight, wouldn't replicating the original bullet weight and bhn be best since the weight of the bullet was designed for that rifling and BP charge, yes?

 

[BJung]

Who is going to do the gunsmithing? 45/70 or 50/70, you will need a proper barrel. For hunting and target I think the 45/70 is the most versatile, and easiest to find ammo and components for. The bore diameter, the fact that it is a different rim and cartridge, all have to be addressed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.17×42mm_RF

I read on other posts that Green Valley rifle barrels will work. I'll find a gunsmith later. What's on my mind now is giving up my mint M96 Swede Mauser to acquire the rolling block. I don't want to too much money on the hobby, want only a few guns now, and will sell them to have a versatile collection to shoot with.

 

[dave951]

Is Black powder next to impossible to find??

If you're looking at a LGS, then probably. If you don't mind ordering, then it's available. You want Swiss in 2 or 3f. If you're anywhere near Winchester VA, Back Creek Gun Shop is your choice.

Do BP cartridge shooters tend to use gas checks or paper patch?

Gas checks, no. Paper patch- learn to reload without it first. Paper patch is not Black Powder Cartridge 101. It introduces another layer of variables and you'll need a bullet designed for it.

A one cavity mold and a good ladle might be a good idea. As for bullet weight, wouldn't replicating the original bullet weight and bhn be best since the weight of the bullet was designed for that rifling and BP charge, yes?

Sometimes. Again, the original rifling on these guns may be suspect. Mine looked fine. Shot only so so, like a 7 shot group at 50yd would have 3 in one hole and 4 on walkabout making for a group size of about 5+in at 50yd and that's with both wiping and blow tubing every shot and doing nothing between shots, it didn't matter. Your original postings were about accuracy. It probably won't happen with the original bore. Remember these were early military cartridge guns not target rifles. Since my reline, I had some ammo left that I could get to the range for at least a look at how it might shoot. Using my modified bullet, faster twist at 100yd, it put 3 rounds into 1.5in. I'd say that was an improvement over 5in at 50yd.

In the event you might be thinking, well, maybe he can't shoot....

100yd with Parker Hale Musketoon, 58cal

 

[BJung]

If you're looking at a LGS, then probably. If you don't mind ordering, then it's available. You want Swiss in 2 or 3f. If you're anywhere near Winchester VA, Back Creek Gun Shop is your choice.



Gas checks, no. Paper patch- learn to reload without it first. Paper patch is not Black Powder Cartridge 101. It introduces another layer of variables and you'll need a bullet designed for it.



Sometimes. Again, the original rifling on these guns may be suspect. Mine looked fine. Shot only so so, like a 7 shot group at 50yd would have 3 in one hole and 4 on walkabout making for a group size of about 5+in at 50yd and that's with both wiping and blow tubing every shot and doing nothing between shots, it didn't matter. Your original postings were about accuracy. It probably won't happen with the original bore. Remember these were early military cartridge guns not target rifles. Since my reline, I had some ammo left that I could get to the range for at least a look at how it might shoot. Using my modified bullet, faster twist at 100yd, it put 3 rounds into 1.5in. I'd say that was an improvement over 5in at 50yd.

In the event you might be thinking, well, maybe he can't shoot....

100yd with Parker Hale Musketoon, 58cal
View attachment 1059022

I'm spoiled by reloading and having military surplus rifles group well. For example, my first high power rifle was a scoped Enfield that grouped the size of a quarter at 100 yards. I sold that and moved up to a Swedish Mauser. If the M67 isn't going to group well, does it have the option to have the barrel changed to 50/70 or 45/70? I think a new modern barrel will tighten up the groups. I wonder what causes those flyers in your current original rifle?

 

[paul harm]

I bought a 43 Spanish roller and it shoots just fine. I'm not much of a rifle man but always felt, right or wrong, the 43 was about the same as a 45/70. Just about all the rollers have a really HEAVY trigger pull. Goggle rolling block trigger pull to fix it cheap. Good luck.

 

[dave951]

If the M67 isn't going to group well, does it have the option to have the barrel changed to 50/70 or 45/70? I think a new modern barrel will tighten up the groups. I wonder what causes those flyers in your current original rifle?

I still have the original barrel on the gun. It was relined by Bobby Hoyt who does quite a few black powder barrels both cartridge and muzzleloader. He is well thought of in competition circles. I have more than one gun done by him. Bobby can take the 12.7 Swede and make it into either a 45/70 or a 50/70 during the reline process. Since both cartridges are straight wall, choice of reamer can get 45/90-100-120 and same with 50/70.

I'll tell you what caused those flyers, bullet wasn't stable. There was some evidence of tipping. The slow, deep original rifling was for a relatively light bullet of about 350gr with a dished base, and that "dish" is not a cavity like a minie. Even back then, accuracy wasn't great so these guns got surplussed fast as better stuff became available.

 

[BJung]

This is slightly off topic but will those antique rifle barrels be able to shoot the Barnes copper bullets? I live in CA and that is the only bullet option if the rifle is used for hunting.

 

[Jim Watson]

Lots of folks are reluctant to shoot even jacketed bullets in the old guns.
I'd want a modern chrome moly barrel for copper bullets.

 

[dave951]

This is slightly off topic but will those antique rifle barrels be able to shoot the Barnes copper bullets? I live in CA and that is the only bullet option if the rifle is used for hunting.

old barrels were designed for lead.

 

[BJung]

Any modern barrel will be able to take it I assume?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I subscribe to Mike Venturino's advice in his book shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West.

If this is going to be your first Black Powder 'rifle' cartridge Mike advises to start with 45-70 before trying any of the more 'esoteric' cartridges. Components are more easily available for 45-70, so is loading data. I have no idea how tough it is to buy components these days, I have not bought components for 45-70 in a long time, but I suspect the advice will still hold true.






I shoot 45-70 loaded with Black Powder in my Pedersoli Sharps, and my antique Trapdoor.








By the way, if you are new to Black Powder, Mike's book is excellent. He has a general chapter about loading Black Powder in rifle cartridges which is worth the price of the book. Then he has chapters about all of the old Buffalo rifles, as well as specific chapters about each of the old cartridges and how to load them with Black Powder.

Mike's book is available on Amazon.