45 acp problems

[davers]

Hey Gang,

I've reloaded about 100 rounds of 230 FMJ that my new Beretta px4 storm ate without a hiccup. I decided to try 230 RNF and loaded about 50 of them to take to the range today. Every single one failed to chamber all the way.

230 LRN
Bullseye 4.7
CCI SPP
Blazer Brass
Taper Crimp

Case Length: .889
Overall Length: 1.254
Neck Diameter: .466
Base Diameter: .474
Middle of case Diameter: .468

The brass is a mix, some has been fired once and some twice. I noticed some scoring on the lead and thought maybe the burrs on the ramp were scratching the lead enough to cause the round not to fully chamber. But when I cleaned that up, it didn't score the bullet anymore, but it still didn't chamber all the way. I tried the "plunk" test? Is that what it's called? And they don't plunk. I have a box of FMJ factory rounds, and those do plunk. Here's a picture of what my rounds look like in case that would be helpful:



Does anyone have any idea what I may be doing wrong??

Thanks for any help!

Dave

 

[Vec]

Could it be that they are too long for your chamber? In my 1911 I have to load them to an OAL of 1.230" (different bullet though) for them to chamber otherwise it would be doing the same thing for me. It all depends on the ogive of the bullet an how your chamber is cut.

Something to try would be to get a case that was already fired such that the bullet can slide in without a lot of force and put the round into the chamber, pull it out and measure it. Do that a few times and see what you get. That'll be the longest you can set the bullet without it jamming into the rifling. You probably want to back off a hundredth or two from the max just to allow for variations.

Good luck!

 

[rcmodel]

Take the barrel out of the gun and use it as a case guage at the reloading press.

Then color a round with a black magic-marker.
Force the round in & out of the chamber.
Where the black rubbed off will quickly tell you what the problem is.

It looks to me in the photo, the bullet you have has more of a full dia bearing surface sticking out of the case then a normal GI profile 230 FMJ-RN.

I think the bullet bearing surface is getting into the rifling leade before it will fully chamber.

If so, you will have to seat deeper until it doesn't.

rc

 

[LiveLife]

Overall Length: 1.254
Neck Diameter: .466
Base Diameter: .474
Middle of case Diameter: .468

I think looking at the picture and your "Neck Diameter" you maybe over crimping the bullet and bulging the case. You didn't have problem with over crimping the FMJ bullet because the softer lead core just get deformed. But with harder lead bullet, overcrimping may have buckled the case and bulged the case that prevented full chambering.

I normally use .470" taper crimp for .451" jacketed diameter bullets and .471"-.472" taper crimp for .452" diameter bullets.

230 LRN

For the larger diameter lead bullet, adjust your taper crimp so it is .472" and see if the round pass the barrel drop test. If you have a tight chamber, you may need to use .471" taper crimp.

Also, as rcmodel posted, you want to make sure you are not hitting the rifling. If you are, decrease the OAL until you don't get marks from rifling when you spin/rotate the bullet while fully chambered.

 

[davers]

Ok... I set the bullet a bit deeper...a little at a time until the bullet plunked almost like a factory round. It sits just about as far in too. The overall length is now 1.225. Is that too short?

bds, I didn't see your post until after I re-seated...is that the correct term, the bullets I had done earlier today. When I load a few later this week, I'll back off my taper crimp and start back with an overall length of 1.254 to see if that does anything.

Thanks for all the help everyone!!

Dave

 

[rcmodel]

I think if seating deeper fixed them, there was nothing wrong with the taper crimp.

BTW: Did you try the black magic-marker to truly identify exactly what was wrong??

rc

 

[LiveLife]

The overall length is now 1.225. Is that too short?

Not at all, as the Max and Ideal OAL of your finished rounds should always be determined by the barrel in YOUR pistol.

Determine the Max OAL using the barrel drop test and determine the Ideal OAL by manually feeding/chambering from the magazine. Often, two are the same but for some pistol/barrel, Ideal OAL may be shorter than Max.

I think if seating deeper fixed them, there was nothing wrong with the taper crimp.

What was the initial taper crimp that was used anyway? Was it the neck diameter of .466" the taper crimp? To me, that would be too much taper crimp for .452" diameter lead bullet.

 

[chhodge69]

It might just be a trick of the photo but I agree with the previous posters that you're over crimping. Here is a photo another poster put up in this thread that shows a properly crimped 45 acp cartridge:

 

[rcmodel]

I'm just not seeing the over-crimp buckle that everyone else is talking about.
Although I agree a taper crimp neck diameter of .466" is too much.

Taper crimping too .469" to .471", depending on the bullet dia you start with is correct.

What I am seeing in the photo is the full dia of the bullet shank sticking out of the case about 1/8" inch.
And that is not going to work in most any gun.

rc

 

[jcwit]

I agree with rc. Look at the difference in where the radius starts in post #8 compared to your photo. Bearing area ie: non radius part, is sticking out to far. Seat the bullet deeper.

 

[davers]

Wow..ok...I see it wasn't seated near enough, AND I have waaaayyy too much taper crimp compared to the photo above. It looks like my taper crimp comes down 3 times as far!!

Thanks!

Dave

 

[davers]

Well, I backed off the taper crimp. What I did was back it off all the way. Cycled a round into it and turned the die until I felt it just touching. Then I raised the lever, turned the die 1/2 turn, and then taper crimped it. I could feel it, but when I look at the round, I can't really tell if it's crimped or not just by looking. Regardless...the bullet does kind of plunk. I then loaded a FMJ round with the same specs, and that does plunk. I then backed off the bullet seating depth about 1/2 turn which puts overall length at about 1.245. No good, LRNF don't plunk for me a greater o.a.l. of 1.225..

Anyway, it's all good! This is fun! Thanks for the help everyone!!!

Dave

 

[john16443]

davers - here's a couple simple way to tell if you have correct, too much, or too little taper crimp on your 45 ACP rounds.

1) take a steel straight edge to your completed round. The correct amount of taper is when the top edge of the case does not hit the straight edge before the body of the case. If it does, you'll see light at the body of the case, too little crimp. If the light is seen at the very top of the case, too much crimp.

2) When you think you've got it right, seat and crimp one of your test rounds, and then remove the bullet with your bullet puller. If you find a ring imprinted on the bullet, you still have a little too much crimp.

It is also important to realize that the setting of your crimp die may have to change with different brass headstamps because of differences in thickness between various brands.

I belive it was already mentioned, but the nose profiles of RN bullets varies, and it will be necessary to make adjustments on COL to find what works in your specific gun.

 

[Deavis]

I then loaded a FMJ round with the same specs, and that does plunk.

Dave, the shape of the bullet is going to determine when you run into trouble with your gun. This illustrates the importance of both a case gage and a barrel test for your gun. The former will solve the crimp problem for you and the latter will solve the OAL problem.

Many people make a big deal out of crimping, it isn't that hard. Set your taper crimp for 0.003" under the maximum neck diameter for rounds needing a taper crimp and you'll have no issues there. No bulging, no slipping, no fuss. If you put it in a case gage, you'll plunk in almost every standard chamber out there with that crimp and know you are g2g. btw, if you were to go measure factory 45ACP, you'd find some crimped as tight as .465 (WWB and S&B in my notes)

For OAL, whenever you are seating a new bullet that you haven't used, start with the book OAL and work it down as necessary for your gun. Once you have that setting using your barrel, you won't have to do it again, just use your case gage. I'd rather grab it than disassemble my gun everytime I load and want to spot check rounds during my loading.

 

[Walkalong]

Here is a photo another poster put up in this thread that shows a properly crimped 45 acp cartridge:

It actually originated here, from this thread.

It may be an optical allusion, but in the original post the brass looks over crimped, but the bullet doesn't show it. I am with bds, I would like to know what it measured at the case mouth. A moot point now though, assuming they are shooting well and not leading at the new shorter O.A.L..

The "plunk test" with pics.

 

[Hondo 60]

Davers - use your calipers to measure the crimp!

Not enough crimp & low tension on the bullet will result in setback while firing - that can be disastrous.

Also, make sure you're adjusting your powder drop while seating the bullet deeper.

Stay safe & have fun!

 

[Fishslayer]

It looks to me in the photo, the bullet you have has more of a full dia bearing surface sticking out of the case then a normal GI profile 230 FMJ-RN.

I thought the same thing.

Is that a LRN or RNFP (Flat Point) ?

The RNFP would naturally have a shorter OAL.

Don't forget that seating the bullet deeper will raise pressure given the same charge weight.

I don't run any of my 230gr cast boolits at 4.7gr of Bullseye. That's getting a tad warm.

 

[Jim Watson]

I was going to describe the problem and the cure but it is already here.

"It looks to me in the photo, the bullet you have has more of a full dia bearing surface sticking out of the case then a normal GI profile 230 FMJ-RN.

I think the bullet bearing surface is getting into the rifling leade before it will fully chamber.

If so, you will have to seat deeper until it doesn't.

rc"

None of the numbers posted here mean a thing unless determined with the same bullet, brass, and gun. The bullet must be seated to where it will chamber freely. THEN measure the actual OAL in case you buy more of that exact same bullet. Taper crimp should remove the bullet seating flare and then narrow the case mouth whatever suits you; something around .469" is ok but it need not be exact. Note that factory loads have no discernable crimp.

 

[davers]

Hey Fishslayer...good point. They are LRNFP... sigh..I didn't even think of that. Of course they will have a shorter o.a.l...

Walkalong... Awesome post!! Those pictures are a huge help to me!

No feeding problems at the range today...Although I didn't notice a difference between factory and my reloads. I haven't fired enough rounds to be able to tell, I think I'll drop the load down to 4.5 grains of Bullseye. My "The Complete Reloading Manual for the .45 A.C.P." shows 4.5 of Bullseye being the starting point, but Hornady shows the same bullett, 230 LRN starting at 4.7 of Bullseye.

Hey Hondo60, my powder drop is bolted to the table. It's a Redding model 3.

Thanks for all the help guys! I really appreciate it!!

Did I mention this is fun!!

Dave

 

[Red Cent]

I have never seen a blued bullet before.

 

[Fishslayer]

I have never seen a blued bullet before.

Moly coated vice the usual waxy lubricant. Supposedly cleaner.

 

[Strykervet]

Take the barrel out of the gun and use it as a case guage at the reloading press.

Then color a round with a black magic-marker.
Force the round in & out of the chamber.
Where the black rubbed off will quickly tell you what the problem is.

It looks to me in the photo, the bullet you have has more of a full dia bearing surface sticking out of the case then a normal GI profile 230 FMJ-RN.

I think the bullet bearing surface is getting into the rifling leade before it will fully chamber.

If so, you will have to seat deeper until it doesn't.

rc

This is good advice.

I loaded some Grendel rounds recently with the new 100grain AMAX, and if you load anywhere near the recommended COL, it won't chamber. A black marker to the bullet indicated that it was contacting the rifling. So I kept seating a little at a time until I got a smooth action. The recommended COL was 2.245 I think, but 2.192 was what it took. I haven't tested them out yet, but I suspect there will be some increase in pressure. The Grendel operates best at higher loadings anyway and depending on the powder used, it is difficult to impossible to get too much in the case to be dangerous.

Not so with pistol rounds. The .45 is a low pressure round and it doesn't take too much to overdo it, pistol cartridges use faster powders in smaller cases so pressure builds up fast. I heard something like .010" extra seating depth in a .40 caused by setback during rough feeding can cause very dangerous pressures --likely the cause of many KB's, since the .40, as a cut down 10mm, is pretty much always loaded at or near the end of the spectrum.

So if you do find you need to seat your bullets deeper, you may want to work the load back up, perhaps use a chrono to get it where you want it and compare the brass to similar loads that are seated longer. That would be what I would do.

As to the taper crimp... Straight wall pistol cases (and some bottlneck like the .357SIG) headspace on the case wall, so case length and taper crimp are kind of important. If you overdo the taper crimp, what usually happens is that the bullet will go too far into the chamber, rather, the brass will go past the chamber. This is dangerous. I use a single stage press, kind of slow, but I also use a digital dispenser and weigh each round --I load for extreme accuracy and consistency. What I do is load the ammo, then go back and crimp in an extra step with the seating plug removed (not necessary to completely remove it but I like to). I crimp it enough to seat round in the barrel I will shoot it out of, or the tightest barrel I have if I intend on shooting it from more than one. I crimp it just enough to fit, it may still be sort of rough, but not sticking. Then I give it a fraction of a turn and tweak it until it just goes in smooth. I understand this is best to do with most straight wall pistol cases in semi autos.

Other things to check... are that you got .45 bullets for a .45ACP. Even if the box says it, they may be worth checking. Also your brass. Depending on where you got it, it could be someone's wildcat range brass left behind (it looks long to me for ACP, but it could just be the picture). Finally, checking your calipers is a good idea. I had dropped mine a few weeks ago, but they looked and seemed fine so I carried on. I was loading some 9mm and my wife said they looked long, I hadn't tried putting them in the chamber yet, I wasn't ready for that. So I closed my calipers and sure enough, they were off by a good bit. Luckily I have a good old Mitutoyo caliper that still has the calibration key so I got 'em back spot on AND with the dial top dead center. Love quality gear.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it real soon, really just a measurement problem.

 

[Fishslayer]

Other things to check... are that you got .45 bullets for a .45ACP. Even if the box says it, they may be worth checking. Also your brass. Depending on where you got it, it could be someone's wildcat range brass left behind (it looks long to me for ACP, but it could just be the picture). Finally, checking your calipers is a good idea. I had dropped mine a few weeks ago, but they looked and seemed fine so I carried on. I was loading some 9mm and my wife said they looked long, I hadn't tried putting them in the chamber yet, I wasn't ready for that. So I closed my calipers and sure enough, they were off by a good bit. Luckily I have a good old Mitutoyo caliper that still has the calibration key so I got 'em back spot on AND with the dial top dead center. Love quality gear.

Good point. .460 Rowland brass looks just like .45ACP brass. Ya never know what gets mixed in when policing brass.

My $10 electronic caliper from Harbor Freight has a pushbutton "Zero" feature.