45 ACP reloading COAL differences

[Crazy Horse]

I had heard about Brazos precision and decided to order a sample pack of 45 ACP 230 gr bullets. I was reloading Speer 230 gr CPRN bullets previously and was consistently seating at 1.240 COAL. When I received the Brazos bullets, I reloaded 50, but kept having to adjust the bullet seating height. I've reloading ACME bullets in the same weight, but the red coating from ACME seemed a bit thicker and I didn't have to adjust the height after getting the right height setting (1.240) just like the Speer CPRN bullets.

I use Lee die sets. The only other difference (besides the hitek coating thickness) that I noticed between ACME bullets and the Brazos bullets was the beveling on the bottom. I had not seen beveling for 45 ACP before as 9mm and 45 bullets are typically straight walled.

I like Brazos precision, and like to support local vendors, but having to check the COAL after seating every bullet takes too much time. Has anyone experienced a similar issue? TIA

 

[Walkalong]

Check the seater stem to bullet fit.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I did, sanded the stem a bit where it presses the bullet. I'll have to check it to verify the OAL. On a positive note, the Brazos 230 grain with line groves shot excellent.

 

[1KPerDay]

having to check the COAL after seating every bullet takes too much time.

My solution: don't check COAL after seating every bullet. If they fit, feed, and shoot straight I stop worrying about it.

 

[mdi]

Are you getting a variation in OAL or just having to adjust the initial setting? Some bullets vary in length, nose, and ogive, so there is some inconsistency "built in" (I have some Nosler bullets with slight burr on the HP mouth and often get an "apparent" .004" variation). If the coating/PC is varying in thickness that is also reason for variation. Bevel base bullets are quite common and many find no difference from flat based bullets and with a coating not much if any difference in accuracy or fouling is found..

Line grooves? Maybe meaning a cannalure, or groove around the diameter?

 

[Crazy Horse]

Are you getting a variation in OAL or just having to adjust the initial setting? Some bullets vary in length, nose, and ogive, so there is some inconsistency "built in" (I have some Nosler bullets with slight burr on the HP mouth and often get an "apparent" .004" variation). If the coating/PC is varying in thickness that is also reason for variation. Bevel base bullets are quite common and many find no difference from flat based bullets and with a coating not much if any difference in accuracy or fouling is found..

Line grooves? Maybe meaning a cannalure, or groove around the diameter?

I'm getting variation in OAL after each bullet (brazos precision). Acme bullets seemed to be thicker, but I don't know if that could account for the more consistent loading for ACME bullets and Speer CPRN bullets over Brazos precision bullets. The variation is as follows: It calls for an OAL of 1.240. Brazos precision bullets after the seating are ~1.260. I do a quick reseat (theoretically it shouldn't change as there no change in height) then OAL goes to ~1.2350. 1Kperday mentioned that if they shoot ok, stop worrying about it. I just don't want to create an overpressure or under pressure (squib) situation by seating the bullet too low because I've never had a bullet vary more than what I have been getting with Brazos precision bullets (been reloading <2 years). Or am I just being too cautious and do a 1Kperday recommends. They did shoot excellent, but I checked OAL and adjusted after seating each bullet which is time consuming. TIA.

 

[1KPerDay]

Load 10 and check the OAL... if it varies 10 or 20 thousandths you're not going to get overpressure. Press the noses firmly against a wooden surface and measure again. If they're the same, your tension is good and they won't get pushed deep by the chambering process. Sounds to me like maybe your crimp is part of the trouble. Measure the case mouth (RIGHT against the edge) and it should be the diameter of the bullet plus about 20 thousandths after seating/crimping.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What is the variation in OAL? You are trying for 1.240", what is the spread?

It calls for an OAL of 1.240.

The data is not "calling for" anything. They are reporting what OAL they used with this bullet they tested in brass trimmed at what they tell you. You are not required to use the OAL they used. In reality the OAL means nothing pressure wise, how much bullet that is in the brass counts. That is what changes pressure. If you are saying the OAL is varying 5 one-thousandth of an inch that is nothing to worry about. Do you realize how very small 5/1000" really is?

It's good to be cautious but then there is worrying about nothing.

Break out the calipers and check the the length of a handful of those bullets and I'll bet you find your variation is in the bullets. Then you can stop worrying about the slight variation you are seeing.

 

[Slamfire]

My solution: don't check COAL after seating every bullet. If they fit, feed, and shoot straight I stop worrying about it.

Bingo!

 

[Crazy Horse]

What is the variation in OAL? You are trying for 1.240", what is the spread?


The data is not "calling for" anything. They are reporting what OAL they used with this bullet they tested in brass trimmed at what they tell you. You are not required to use the OAL they used. In reality the OAL means nothing pressure wise, how much bullet that is in the brass counts. That is what changes pressure. If you are saying the OAL is varying 5 one-thousandth of an inch that is nothing to worry about. Do you realize how very small 5/1000" really is?

It's good to be cautious but then there is worrying about nothing.

Break out the calipers and check the the length of a handful of those bullets and I'll bet you find your variation is in the bullets. Then you can stop worrying about the slight variation you are seeing.

Yes. I do realize how small 5/1000 of an inch is, but when dealling with gunpowder, I'd rather err on the side of caution and ask, than just disregard printed information. Unfortunately I have not come across any literature that shows a spread for OAL Please provide a reference if such literature exists as it would help in determining acceptable variance in OAL that would be helpful and provide peace of mind.

I am just trying to make sure that my variance is not too wide or if there could be an issue with the press, bullet, or technique. Based on how the firing felt, and the comments in this discussionmy, OAL variance for Lead bullets in particular is not an anomoly.

Thx.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; Reading in my copy of "Complete Guide to Reloading" I notice seating bullets used to be measured by the depth of the base into the cases (although I haven't been able to determine the manner/technique). For a 45 ACP 230 gr. MC bullet the dimension is listed as .290" and .300" with Bullseye loads. Perhaps if this method was put into use again there would be less worry about "over pressure due to seating variations"....

 

[Rule3]

Yes. I do realize how small 5/1000 of an inch is, but when dealling with gunpowder, I'd rather err on the side of caution and ask, than just disregard printed information. Unfortunately I have not come across any literature that shows a spread for OAL Please provide a reference if such literature exists as it would help in determining acceptable variance in OAL that would be helpful and provide peace of mind.

I am just trying to make sure that my variance is not too wide or if there could be an issue with the press, bullet, or technique. Based on how the firing felt, and the comments in this discussionmy, OAL variance for Lead bullets in particular is not an anomoly.

Thx.

How did you arrive at the magic number of 1.240?? What data is that??45 acp is a low pressure round so a few thousands means nothing.

If you look at the SAAMI SPECS there is a variation of 1.190 to 1.275
Page 56
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

You need to find the correct OAL for your bullet(cartridge) in YOUR barrel by plunk testing them. Once it drops in and falls out (after crimp) that is the correct length. All bullets will vary a bit in profile even if the same weight.

Take 10 bullets and measure each one of them. Are they all identical? or they may vary a few thousandths.

 

[Crazy Horse]

How did you arrive at the magic number of 1.240?? What data is that??45 acp is a low pressure round so a few thousands means nothing.

If you look at the SAAMI SPECS there is a variation of 1.190 to 1.275
Page 56
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

You need to find the correct OAL for your bullet(cartridge) in YOUR barrel by plunk testing them. Once it drops in and falls out (after crimp) that is the correct length. All bullets will vary a bit in profile even if the same weight.

Take 10 bullets and measure each one of them. Are they all identical? or they may vary a few thousandths.

Thank you for the reference information from SAAMI. That document definitely provide a spread which indicates the variances I measured are well within tolerance.

The magic number for an OAL of 1.240 was obtained from the Speer Handgun reloading data edition 15 which can also be found in their website. the COAL using 230 grain LRN bullets using CFE pistol powder call for a COAL (tested) of 1.240. The Hornady reloading handbook calls for a COAL of 1.260 (tested), but the lead bullets used in this instance were more uniform (dimensions) to Speer LRN bullets. As for low pressure, I would not have thought it as a low pressure cartridge (based solely on feel).

I've never done a plunk test, but always use a bullet headspace gauge to ensure the bullet will load. Of course that doesn't factor a bullet being too short.

I haven't run into any folks that reload near me or at the range, but I suspect it may be because folks don't typically advertise if they reload as some ranges frown upon using reloaded ammo in their ranges (at least 2 in my area). That's why it's nice to be able to post in this type of forum.

Thanks again for the literature and information on the 45 ACP as it will come in handy to ensure tolerances are adhered to and bring piece of mind.

 

[1KPerDay]

FYI the data they provide is really applicable only to that exact bullet in their exact barrel. It will usually get you close, but you can't necessarily take speer/Hornady/Lee/Lyman/Alliant/whoever's OAL data with any load, whether it be FMJ, JHP, SWC or anything else, and apply it across the board as gospel for "all" FMJ (or whatever the type of bullet/load data you're using). It's particularly problematic when people take, say, 230 grain JHP data (which is typically shorter than RN data) and apply it across the board to different bullet types, makers, and profiles (and barrels/chambers). I realize you aren't doing this but just FYI.

That's why you need to be good friends with the plunk/feeding tests, and as you always hear, 'start low and work up.' Every new load/bullet, every time.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Thx. I do stay low as a rule (have never loaded for any type of caliber at Max powder). I overlooked the additional safeguard against overpressure. But like you started initially, the deviation is so minute, that it won't cause any issues. Appreciate the help.

 

[Jonesy814]

Using mixed headlamp brass will cause variations in OAK like the OP posted about. I sort & load all my brass by headlamp and get very consistent OALs

 

[Rod47]

I would expect minor variations in the cutting tools used to manuracture commercial multi cavity moulds to contribute to your problem. Find a good average OAL and go shoot them.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Thx for all the recommendations. Yes, I have brass from several different companies. Just recently, I realized that Blazer brass utilizes small primers. As others have posted, that gets frustrating. But I have managed to extract those cases and have brass from Magtech, LAXAMMO, and Browning and while I can sort between each manufacturer, I'm going to settle and utilize an OAL of 1.247-1.243. That's well within the tolerances that Rule3 provided in the pdf he attached and should keep shooting results consistent.

 

[Rule3]

Look at the Hodgdon Data, for every powder and a 230 gr bullet they used 1.200

Just to show you that COL vary a lot depending on what source you use.

 

[Blue68f100]

If you measure some factory ammo you will see > 0.010" variation. The only way to see if its your equipment/die is to measure using the seating stem out of your die. You will find that it will give you a very consistent OAL reading. Due to the shape of the bullet the noses vary, the ogive your seating stem contact is more consistent.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; One hint I use that helps greatly when starting to reload a new to me cartridge. I find the SAAMI drawing of the particular cartridge, print it out and put it in my reloading binder (I record my reloads/data on my computer, and print a hard copy for my 3 ring binders kept in my shop). Sometimes for cartridges I used a lot, I posted the printed drawings on the wall above my bench...

 

[243winxb]

The variation is as follows: It calls for an OAL of 1.240. Brazos precision bullets after the seating are ~1.260. I do a quick reseat (theoretically it shouldn't change as there no change in height) then OAL goes to ~1.2350

https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/

On a Lee seating die, can you back out the die and turn the seating plug down? May help? I use RCBS.

Is the Lee post sizing ring moving the bullet when removing round from the factory crimp die?

Lee photo.

 

[243winxb]

Neck tension- If to light, bullet may move.

Check neck case diameter, before and after seating a bullet. After seating the outside diameter should be larger by .002" or more.

Expander diameter should be close to .450"

Different brands of brass have different case wall thickness. Thin produces less neck tension.

If the sizing die is not doing its job, buy a Lee Undersize Carbide Die.

 

[kmw1954]

Guess I am still trying to understand how different headstamps effect any length when the case is the only item that has changed.

The shell holder at full extension is static it will not go higher and when fully extended will not go lower other that whatever machining slop is present. Same goes for a seating die in a fixed fixture such as a single stage press where the die is screwed into the press. once set that dimension also will not change. So the distance between the seating stem and the shell holder is static unless someone makes an adjustment. So I just do not see how a change in shell case is going to change the finished length.

 

[Walkalong]

Guess I am still trying to understand how different headstamps effect any length when the case is the only item that has changed.

It doesn't much if any in seating .45 ACP.

Flex in the press, poor seater stem fit, uneven sizing due to brass variances, can affect OAL. So, in a way mixed brass can affect OAL by afecting press flex. I size all my brass and then hand prime prior to loading. So when I am loading the brass there is no sizing going on, only expanding, charging, and seating/crimp or seating and then crimping.

So that brings another variable, crimping. If you are crimping in a separate step, and your brass is different lengths when using a medium to heavy crimp like in .357 Mag etc, that can also affect seating depth variance. Not an issue with a light taper crimp in .45 ACP.

I trim all my revolver brass, so my crimping is pretty even and doesn't affect press flex much.