45 Colt Case Prep (for rifle) Dilemma

[Charlie98]

Replace that with a roll crimp, or a redding profile crimp. Classic Colt loads do not need a heavy crimp. Make sure you aren't crimping so hard as to bulge the case mouth.

That...^^^ If you move to a slower powder, like Unique, a good roll crimp helps the burn clean up.

I can feel some of the blow-by on my face when I shoot the rifle, so safety glass of some type are needed.

I agree... as I mentioned, my brother's Trapper shoots gas right in your eye with lower powered loads. The Marlin isn't so bad, but if it can be eliminated... I think it's a good thing.

One other thing... with the Marlin. You might check the rifling twist before moving to heavier bullets. The 1894 I had, had the terribly slow 1:38" rifling... I had a very hard time stabilizing 250grn bullets without going to Ruger-only loads. If lower velocity loads are your goal, stick with the lighter bullets... and faster powders.

 

[JDinFbg]

Edited to add: I will also add, after reading some more posts on this...if you're using cast bulets, and/or coated cast bullets...with a lee FCD, that could be contributing to your problem. It's "resizing" your bullets (IIRC, to .451). You definitely don't want that. Replace that with a roll crimp, or a redding profile crimp. Classic Colt loads do not need a heavy crimp. Make sure you aren't crimping so hard as to bulge the case mouth.

Eric, I have yet myself to load up any 45 Colt ammo for my Marlin, so have just been shooting the ammo my friend gave me. I know he seated bullets as a separate operation, then used a Lee Carbide FCD to crimp the 200 gr. cast bullets. I believe they were .452" diameter bullets. I do not know for sure all the previous loading steps he took, but I believe he FL sized the cases in a carbide sizing die since he intended for them to be shot in multiple firearms. I had already purchased a Lee Carbide FCD for my reloading and was concerned (sort of had an Oh, S#*t moment) when I read your comments about the FCD, comments by others in this thread, and some additional reviews I read on some other forums. It seems there is a love/hate relationship concerning the Lee Carbide FCD for straight-wall cartridges, and I think it all boils down to the diameter of the casts bullet one loads and how thick the brass is (some noted issues only with Starline brass that tends to be thicker). I plan to shoot .452" diameter cast bullets and have several brands of brass. I ran a test using 3-4 fired R-P cases. First, using the fired cases that had been cleaned but NOT sized, I ran them into my FCD and the carbide ring did not even 'squeeze' the cases. Next, I created some dummy rounds by partially sizing the cases (only the outer part of the cases that would touch the sides of the bullets) in a Lyman steel (not carbide) FL die, expanded the necks with an RCBS .452" CB expanding mandrill, seated .452" 250 gr. Oregon Trail cast bullets to the crimping groove using a Redding Pro-Series seater, then ran the dummy rounds into my Lee Carbide FCD with the crimp plug backed out a little so as to not actually crimp. I did not encounter any undue force on the press handle, and there was no obvious compression of the cases and bullets. I pulled the bullets from the dummy rounds and checked them with my calipers. The diameter of the cast bullets was exactly the same as the sample of new cast bullets I pulled right out of the box. So, at least for my .452" cast bullets in R-P cases, it does not appear I will have any issue using my Lee Carbide FCD. It produces a nice crimp without unduly compressing the bullets. I will have to re-verify all this when I reload some Starline, WW, and PMC brass I have. Since my plan is to use the R-P brass only for cast bullet loads, I should be good with the Lee Carbide FCD die I already purchased.

 

[RealGun]

Eric, I have yet myself to load up any 45 Colt ammo for my Marlin, so have just been shooting the ammo my friend gave me. I know he seated bullets as a separate operation, then used a Lee Carbide FCD to crimp the 200 gr. cast bullets. I believe they were .452" diameter bullets. I do not know for sure all the previous loading steps he took, but I believe he FL sized the cases in a carbide sizing die since he intended for them to be shot in multiple firearms. I had already purchased a Lee Carbide FCD for my reloading and was concerned (sort of had an Oh, S#*t moment) when I read your comments about the FCD, comments by others in this thread, and some additional reviews I read on some other forums. It seems there is a love/hate relationship concerning the Lee Carbide FCD for straight-wall cartridges, and I think it all boils down to the diameter of the casts bullet one loads and how thick the brass is (some noted issues only with Starline brass that tends to be thicker). I plan to shoot .452" diameter cast bullets and have several brands of brass. I ran a test using 3-4 fired R-P cases. First, using the fired cases that had been cleaned but NOT sized, I ran them into my FCD and the carbide ring did not even 'squeeze' the cases. Next, I created some dummy rounds by partially sizing the cases (only the outer part of the cases that would touch the sides of the bullets) in a Lyman steel (not carbide) FL die, expanded the necks with an RCBS .452" CB expanding mandrill, seated .452" 250 gr. Oregon Trail cast bullets to the crimping groove using a Redding Pro-Series seater, then ran the dummy rounds into my Lee Carbide FCD with the crimp plug backed out a little so as to not actually crimp. I did not encounter any undue force on the press handle, and there was no obvious compression of the cases and bullets. I pulled the bullets from the dummy rounds and checked them with my calipers. The diameter of the cast bullets was exactly the same as the sample of new cast bullets I pulled right out of the box. So, at least for my .452" cast bullets in R-P cases, it does not appear I will have any issue using my Lee Carbide FCD. It produces a nice crimp without unduly compressing the bullets. I will have to re-verify all this when I reload some Starline, WW, and PMC brass I have. Since my plan is to use the R-P brass only for cast bullet loads, I should be good with the Lee Carbide FCD die I already purchased.

 

[RealGun]

Oregon Trail bullets are too hard to be as affected as other lead alloys. RP head stamps, at least in some calibers, are thinner walled and can account for .001 or maybe more in diameter. Review your conclusions that were based partly on whether the bullet was resized, and if other brands of brass would yield similar results. I wouldn't fight it. You need a different crimp die for lead bullets.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

My 1894CB hates .452"cast bullets. Big 'ol chunks of lead would come out with the jag after only a few rounds. Slugged my bore and it measured .4515" groove. Ordered some .454" diameter bullets from gtbullets and all leading vanished. Accuracy improved dramatically also.

My chamber is so large that carbide dies were absolutely destroying the brass. Case head seperations after only a few loadings from the over working of the brass. Switched to tapered steel dies and brass seemingly lasts forever now. Cartridges are now a much better fit to chamber also with a lot less slop.

 

[GooseGestapo]

OP... I know your situation!


I own a Winchester Mod 1894 Trails End Legacy with a 24” bbl.
With SAA Colt safe loads, it blows! Significantly!

Several thoughts...

1. You didn’t specify what brand brass you’re using. I’ve found Magtech Brass (CBC) to be the thinnest, hence I use it for my light cast bullets. Starline seems to be the thickest and strongest and shows the worst blow by.
It also won’t accept a bullet in a fired case without flaring.

2. I’ve found using either HP38, Universal, or Unique, going up above listed maximum charges by 10-15% vastly reduces blow by by completely obturating the brass, and keeping pressure sufficient till the bullet exits the muzzle.
ie: I use 8.2gr of Universal and 8.7gr of Unique.

Obviously, Ruger-only level loads pose no problems but aren’t appropriate for many applications. FWIW, my rifle with a Williams 5D receiver sight has shot sub 2” groups at 100yds with a Hornady 250gr XTP over Nosler’s max load of #2400.
It’s a neat rifle. I’d never have bought it, but rather won it in a PPC regional match... but it’s a “keeper” !

 

[Crunchy Frog]

I have a friend who struggled with blowby in his .45 Colt rifles. He tried several approaches, including annealing the cases, but never did eliminate the problem.

One day he called to report that he had finally solved it. He bought a .44-40 rifle.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I have a friend who struggled with blowby in his .45 Colt rifles. He tried several approaches, including annealing the cases, but never did eliminate the problem.

One day he called to report that he had finally solved it. He bought a .44-40 rifle.

Right there is why the “old hyphenated “ cartridges had such thin cases!
.22Hornet, .25-20, .32-20, .38-40, .44-40. .45Colt (folded, or so-called “ballon head” cases) are noted for being fragile because of thin walls. Originally, the .45Colt WASN’T a RIFLE cartridge.
Seems some things have been forgotten in recent times.

 

[JDinFbg]

Right there is why the “old hyphenated “ cartridges had such thin cases!
.22Hornet, .25-20, .32-20, .38-40, .44-40. .45Colt (folded, or so-called “ballon head” cases) are noted for being fragile because of thin walls. Originally, the .45Colt WASN’T a RIFLE cartridge.
Seems some things have been forgotten in recent times.

Seems to support the concept of using the thinnest available 45 Colt brass for rifles, particularly for lighter, cast bullet loads. Of all the 45 Colt cases I have, the R-P brass is the thinnest, and that's what I plan to use as I start to develop and test cast bullet loads for my 1894 Marlin. And even then, I plan to load to or at the higher end of the acceptable powder range with Unique. Based on all the posts on this thread so far, it seems I have a lot of things to test with no guarantee I will achieve success.

 

[RealGun]

Seems to support the concept of using the thinnest available 45 Colt brass for rifles, particularly for lighter, cast bullet loads. Of all the 45 Colt cases I have, the R-P brass is the thinnest, and that's what I plan to use as I start to develop and test cast bullet loads for my 1894 Marlin. And even then, I plan to load to or at the higher end of the acceptable powder range with Unique. Based on all the posts on this thread so far, it seems I have a lot of things to test with no guarantee I will achieve success.

I wonder if the thinnest brass will be the first to split if the dies are not ideal and are overworking the brass.

 

[JDinFbg]

I wonder if the thinnest brass will be the first to split if the dies are not ideal and are overworking the brass.

I guess I'll find out. If the thinnest brass and my loading process and components solves the blow-by problem and shoots reasonably well, I'll settle with having shorter case life. Having read a lot of posts on the subject before buying the dies for loading 45 Colt, I found a used, Lyman steel sizing die which purportedly does less extreme sizing than the carbide dies available.

 

[Charlie98]

I wonder if the thinnest brass will be the first to split if the dies are not ideal and are overworking the brass.

I found a used, Lyman steel sizing die which purportedly does less extreme sizing than the carbide dies available.

Again, using my brother's Trapper as an example, I've not yet had a piece of brass fail from the generous chamber... and it's been nearly 30 years since I bought that rifle for him and have been handloading for it. Granted, I don't shoot it as much as I did... it's in Corpus Christi, and I'm in Dallas these days... but I'm still using the same WW .45 Colt brass I bought for it when I bought the rifle.

When I saw how the brass was being blown out, I considered finding a different die to modify... opening it up a bit so it wouldn't size the cases down so much. Never did it, but the idea is valid, of course.

 

[JDinFbg]

I use 8.2gr of Universal and 8.7gr of Unique.

What weight of cast bullet are you driving with those powder loads? Are they a hard or soft alloy?

 

[GooseGestapo]

What weight of cast bullet are you driving with those powder loads? Are they a hard or soft alloy?

Lee 255gr LFN. Moderately soft. Sized .452”.
W/W + 95/5 lead free solder to improve cast plus ~50% scrap.
Not dead soft lead.

 

[JDinFbg]

After reviewing all the comments on my OP, I was finally able to make it to the range to test what I indicated I was thinking of doing in Post #4. I selected 20 fired R-P cases, annealed the neck area on 10 and left the other 10 as is. All were otherwise processed and loaded exactly the same. I partially sized the cases in a Lyman 45 Colt steel sizing die, expanded with an RCBS .452 Cowboy expanding plug, seated bullets with a Redding 45 Colt/454 Casull Pro Seater, then crimped with a Lee 45 Colt/454 Casull Carbide Factory Crimp Die. The load I used in all 20 R-P cases was:

CCI No.300 Large Pistol Primers
8.7 gr. Unique (scale weighed)
250 gr. Oregon Trail RNFP Cast Bullets, BHN 15, Sized .452

At the range, I fired all 10 annealed case rounds at one target at 50 yds. and the 10 non-annealed case rounds at a second target at the same range. My Marlin 1894 is equipped with a 2.5x20mm fixed-power scope. After firing each round I wiped the exterior of each case with a new cleaning patch to indicate how much carbon was deposited. I fired the 10 annealed case rounds first, then fired the 10 non-annealed case rounds. Range conditions were sunny and clear, temps around 68-70 degrees, and very light wind. The attached photos show the 20 cleaning patches and the two targets I shot.

My shooting experience revealed that I DID NOT feel any blow-by on my face from any of the 20 rounds fired. The cleaning patches showed that the level of carbon deposited on the fired cases was minimal and did not vary based on whether the case was annealed or not. It appears that the load I selected and the way I processed the cases was what eliminated the blow-by I previously experienced with my friend's loads (see OP), and annealing had no bearing on controlling blow-by. The only thing I noted was that for the 10 annealed case rounds I shot I did not get as small a group as I got with the non-annealed case rounds. I cannot explain this other than to think that the annealed cases had softer brass and may not have held the bullets as tightly or as straight as the non-annealed cases.

So at least for my rifle I have demonstrated that I do not need to anneal cases to eliminate blow-by. Rather, the load, bullet weight, and how the cases were processed was what made the difference.

 

[JDinFbg]

As a follow-up to what I noted in Post #40 above, I had an opportunity to do some additional load testing to see what my 1894 Marlin CB liked the best. Using the same cast bullet, I tested loads of 8.5 gr., 8.7 gr., 9.0 gr., and 9.3 gr. of Unique. I loaded 10 rounds of each load and shot the respective loads at separate targets at 50 yds. The results are shown in the attached PDF file. All could be considered 'minute of pig', but the 8.5 gr. load seemed to perform the best. It produced the smallest mean radius of all loads tested and had modest and acceptable recoil. At 9.3 grs., the recoil was definitely greater and the results got a little squirrely. From the 4 loads tested, I noted the mean radius for the 10-shot groups got progressively larger as I went from 8.5 gr. up to 9.3 gr.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Positively dazzled by this post. Been loading .45 Colt since '94, entirely for my own entertainment. My guns include an Uberti SAA and Schofield, a Smith 25, an R92 and a '73. If there has been blowby in any of those arms, I haven't noticed it.
Messed around with Unique and 4227 with ok results, tho' powder position in the case did make a big difference.
Then I discovered Trailboss. The stuff metered like water, and filled up that big case (an aside; wish I'd had it when loading for a 5lb Ruger carbine in .45-70; that stinker like to kick me to death).
Velocities were consistent; 5.8 gave 706'sec in a 5.5" Stampede and 825'sec in a now-departed 16" '94. Brass was Starline and about anything else. Dies are Dillon in the 550. Bullets were locally sourced or from Missouri Bullet; 255 RNFP.
Maybe I'm just living right (pure of heart and all that... ), but .45 Colt just hasn't been hard to load. And it's a ball to shoot.
Best,
Moon

 

[Tallinar]

Like halfmoonclip, this thread has me scratching my head a bit. I’ve loaded .45 Colt for near a decade, in a variety of rifles and revolvers, and not experienced this problem — or at least never noticed it.

In any event, I appreciate the data you shared on your last couple posts. Glad you got it figured out. 250 gr bullets and 8.5-9.0 grains of Unique has been my “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” load for a long while.

 

[Charlie98]

If there has been blowby in any of those arms, I haven't noticed it.

and not experienced this problem

Trust me, you'll know it if it does it.

 

[JDinFbg]

Then I discovered Trailboss.

I have some Trailboss and have tried it in my 30-06 with cast bullets, but I was not impressed with the results. It may have been the rifle, the powder-bullet combo, or whatever, but it did make for a very comfortable shooting experience. The other thing nice about Trailboss is that it is absolutely impossible to double-charge a case. I may give it a try in my 1894 Marlin CB in 45 Colt to see what kind of results I get. Testing and trying new things is half the fun of shooting.

 

[Seedy Character]

I load Trail Boss in .30-06, with a 115 gr powder coated bullets @ 2600 fps. Emulates a mild .25-06 load.

1" groups, mild recoil. My 16 yo grandson loves it. Deer tested. Papa approved.

6.4 gr Trail Boss with a 200 gr powder coated bullets is a 850 fps .45 Colt load.
Dropping to 5.8 is my Cowboy Action load.

I love Trail Boss. My go to for Cowboy loads and teaching new or young shooters.
2.0 gr with a 95 gr powder coated in .357 has .22 recoil, without the loud "crack".
A 6yo, who had never been around guns, had his first cylinder dump and couldn't stop grinning. He enjoyed it so much, his 100% anti-gun Mom wanted to shoot it, too. She is converted.

 

[FROGO207]

I have not had any problems loading my 45 Colt loads for many many years. I use a set of old Ideal dies. Those of you with problems with the FCD post sizing the bullet might benifit from removing the sizing ring .