.45 Colt Evolution

[Nightcrawler]

I've read that the original .45 Colt black powder loading was a 252 grain lead bullet that did nearly 1,000 feet per second from a 7.5" barrel.

Not bad, when you compare it to much of it's competition. .38 Long Colt was positively anemic, from what I understand.

Anyway, when .45 Colt cartridges were introduced in smokeless powder, the velocity numbers dropped a lot (again, from what I've read). Instead of 900+ feet per second you had 750 feet per second, comparable to today's "Cowboy" target loads.

What happened? I understand that smokeless powder is higher pressure than black powder.

Anybody have any reloading data from the early 20th century for .45 Colt? What kind of performance were they really getting?

Thanks.

 

[mete]

The original loading was 40 grains of black powder and 255 gr bullet, for 910 fps. Even 80 years ago a 34gr [800 fps] load was common. It wa s sometimes loaded to match the 45 Schofield ,an anemic 230 at 730 fps. In any case ,like the 45-70 , it's still here and still works after 125 years !!A fine cartridge.

 

[Desert Dog]

Yep quite the evolution considering my safe handloads push a 335 gr bullet at 1250 FPS out of a 5.5" barrel. Out of a 20" carbine barrel the velocity jumps to 1600 FPS.

I think most of the modern reduced loads stem from the fact that there are a LOT of old Colt SAA's still out there. They cannot take a full power modern load without disassembling themselves...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You can duplicate the old ballisticswith 18 to 20 grains of 4227, which is a nice load out of my 1906 Colt New Service. It's a bit stiff for a SAA, however -- especially one of that vintage.

 

[Clark]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_48/ai_82551649
.45 Colt: This is the Single Action Cartridge. It was first chambered in the Colt Single Action Army Model of 1873 -- the Model P, the Peacemaker, the Hogleg, the Equalizer. Whatever name you call it, the original loading of a 255-grain bullet over 40 grains of black powder was an awesome load and proved to be too powerful for most users. It was soon cut back to 30 grains for military use and 35 grains for civilian use. In a 7 1/2-inch barreled sixgun, the former yields around 750 to 800 fps, while the latter comes in at 875 to 925 fps. Most current factory loads for Cowboy Action Shooting duplicate the 30-grain load. The .45 Colt is currently chambered in Colt Single Actions; Ruger Vaqueros and Blackhawks; Colt, Remington, and Smith & Wesson replicas; leverguns from Marlin and Winchester; and replicas on the Winchester 1866, 1873. and 1892 platforms.

We may infer from that, that for a short while, the 45Colt was 1000 to 1050 fps with 255 gr bulles.
I just got a reproduction 1873 Single action army, and I have been shooting 250 gr with H110.
My impression is that I SHOULD HAVE STARTED DOING THIS SOONER!!

 

[Desert Dog]

My impression is that I SHOULD HAVE STARTED DOING THIS SOONER!!

I agree Clark. I find .45 Colt to be, by far, the most entertaining caliber I reload for...

 

[warddc]

what load

Clark,

What kind of load have you been using for H-110 and 255 gr bullet. I don't see any load data for the 45 colt in the hogdon manual for H-110. I would be interested in trying some loads with that.

dave.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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What kind of load have you been using for H-110 and 255 gr bullet. I don't see any load data for the 45 colt in the hogdon manual for H-110. I would be interested in trying some loads with that.
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H110 works better with heavier bullets and a good crimp (which you need anyway for heavy recoilling loads.) I like 4227, and have tried 16.0 grains of Li'l Gun for the New Service, but this load smokes the outside of the cases, and I dropped that experiment.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

Old vs New .45 Longus Coltus

Vern, take a peek at the new Nosler loading manual. they list the VV-N-110 for the single action low pressure loads that I've used in a Colt and Uberti for 250s@1000fps in a 5" barrel..very accurate tho it could have been the Meister slugs.
Terry Murbach from Corbon reported on another forum that using the old ballon cases with 40gns of modern BP gave over 1000fps from a 5.5 (maybe a 7 1/2"?) Ruger SA.
Platform-Platform-Platform, ya just gotta repeat that all guns chambered in .45LC ain't created equally strengthwise when discussing the modern Ruger/Linebaugh level loads available at retail outlets these days!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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Vern, take a peek at the new Nosler loading manual. they list the VV-N-110 for the single action low pressure loads that I've used in a Colt and Uberti for 250s@1000fps in a 5" barrel..very accurate tho it could have been the Meister slugs.
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Hmmm -- VV-N-110? Is that any different from H110/WW296? I'll have to try it.

I keep my New Service loads separated from my Ruger Blackhawk loads -- using different headstamps to be sure.

And I wouldn't want to fire my New Service loads in a vintage SAA if I had one.

 

[Clark]

N110 is very different in how it looks. I have never found a use for it, but I have friends that like it.

In the 45 Colt Uberti 4.75" barrel SAA clone, I have been shooting 22, 23, and 24 gr H110 with 250 gr XTP crimp to the canalure, WLR primers. I don't have any way to know directly if that is high pressure, low pressure, or what. Quickload thinks 24 gr is about 20 kspi.

I was also shooting a 44 mag, 29-4 with 240 gr 24 gr H110, and the 44 mag kicked twice as hard as the 45 Colt.

It seems to me that H110 gets peaky in 32 S&W Long, with dud loads a grain away from flat primers. But in bigger cases, it behaves better in a work up.
LIL'GUN, on the other hand, is so well behaved, sometimes the velocity does not go up with increasing powder charge.


For accurate and wimpy loads for my brother, Unique seems to work very well, making small groups at 25'.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Pressures tend to be linear -- that is, you can draw a graph and find a linear relationship between pressure and charge, if you hold bullet constant, or between bullet weight and pressure, if you hold the charge constant.

I think your load is right at 20K CUP, which is a bit stiff for a SAA, but not disasterously so. I suppose after a lot of shooting, that Uberti might go out of time and develop some end-shake. But a moderate diet wouldn't hurt it.

 

[Mal H]

Vern - I know you probably know this, but when you say:

Hmmm -- VV-N-110? Is that any different from H110/WW296? I'll have to try it.

I feel compelled to say that N110 and H110 are different. As Clark implied, they are not the same and no one should try to use one as a substitute for the other with regards to load data even if they are fairly close to each other in a burn rate chart.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Oh, I have no intention of trying any powder without good reloading data for THAT particular powder.

For example, H110 and WW296 are the "same" powder -- but I don't switch from one to the other! There's enough difference between them to make such a switch without consulting speficic reloading data something that could ruin a perfectly good gun.

 

[Nightcrawler]

So, if you were going to load a decent defensive load that'd be safe in a MODERN single action army (Colt, USFA, etc.), as well as the pre-endurance package S&W 25-5s, what load would you use?

I don't yet handload, so the powder types and amounts are all greek to me. But what bullet weights would you use, what bullet types, and what velocities would you shoot for?

The current "standard" SAAMI-safe .45 Colt service load (from both Cor-Bon and Georgia Arms) is a 200 grain JHP at 1100 feet per second (unsure of barrel length). Reportedly GA is releasing a 260 grain JHP load, but I don't know the velocity, and Speer, I think, has a 250 grain JHP at a decent 800 feet per second (though I'd prefer 900+, so as to be able to beat .45ACP +P).

I understand that, obviously, shooting these types of loads in a SAA clone would wear it out faster than babying it with CAS loads. But, I really want a genuine SAA clone (thinking USFA Rodeo) instead of a big chunky Ruger.

Is it safe to assume that anything that's safe in my 80s vintage 25-5 is safe in a modern SAA?

 

[Clark]

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/gunnotes.htm
The 25-5 in .45 Colt is safe to 80% of the 40,000 psi of the .44 Magnum Model 29. This allows a load of 32,000 psi in this frame. I have shot hundreds of the 32,000 psi class loads listed at the beginning of this article in several Model 25-5's.

I used that notion to load up my 25-2 with 1.4" 230 gr LIL'GUN loads.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

CLARK!

Please take note that Linebaugh specifically mentions that his is a dash five (25-5), IME the older guns are not as strong as the new "enhanced" models (after dash -4). Also I've found that the stainless versions are stronger and have the extra enhanced parts..ie the sts 625 mountain gun vs the new blue 25-13 mtn gun I play with.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

PS- Throats/Chamber Thoats-

My partner and I have between us seven S&W 625s in longus coltus and all have needed throat reaming as they run closer to .450 than .4525 which BTW doesn't seem to effect jacketed but really screws up cast accuracy along with barrel leading.

 

[Clark]

It is my understanding that a 29-2 is the predecessor of the 29-4, but the 25-2 is the 45 acp and the 25-5 is the 45 LC.

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

Hiya Clark!-

Just to confuse everything, a bud here has a 50s model 25 in longus coltus! All our sts 625s are dash eight and nines which are enhanced, I dunno why S&W doesn't enhance their blue 25 mtn guns!