45 G.A.P..........Will it amount to anything??

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Whether it will, or it won't set the ammo/gun world on fire remains to be seen. Let's not foget we NEED gun makers to keep innovating and bringing new products to us. A thriving gun industry is a key to our survival as gunners.

Remember...the Edsel was a turd, but folks still bought it, and it worked for them.

:D
 
Billy,
How do you really like the G37??
The closest I've come to it has been to look and fondle at the gun shop!!
What struck me was the G17 frame incestuously mated to the G21 slide!!
My first thought was "that ain't natural"!! :what:
Then, I hear there are no standard capacity mags for it!! It's a Klinton neutered gun from the get go!! :confused:

That may be it's undoing. Unless Gaston coughs up some higher capacity mags, no police agency, in it's right mind, is gunna adapt it!! Why would they?? They can get the full size G21 with a 13 round mag in a proven man stopping caliber!! Perhaps Lord G. has made higher cap mags available to LEO agencies and failed to inform the general gun buying public!!! If that is the case, then it deserves an early death!! If not, then it's demise will be slow and painfull!! :evil:
 
BTW, if I remember the advertisment on the back page of the Rifleman correctly it said the .45 GAP had the same ballistics as a standard .45 ACP, etc.

If that is the case why even bother designing it or even designing guns that require it?

"If you build it they will come." (with money in their pockets)
 
denfoote, I like the G37 but then again do I like it because it is a neato gun or because it is the the next great thing. I have no idea. As far as magazine capacity looking at it I think it may only hold one more round.

It is my understanding that one law enforcement agency has adopted it. Of course it is a local airport so it is small department..

As I said time will tell, who knows, of course one internet rumor was that Gaston wanted a caliber named after him so made it is only for his desire to be remembered.
 
I'm glad the 10MM is having a re-birth. Lots of great guns for it.

Huh?

At yesterday's gun show (admittedly one of the smaller ones) I saw exactly three 10mm pistols -- new EAA Witness & Glock, used Kimber 1911 in 10mm. Kimber was priced $725 and this dealer has had it on his tables for at least a year now. I could have bought all the 10mm ammo displayed and not had 400 rounds to shoot.

Beyond the Glock & EAA Witness variations, and various 1911s in 10mm, along with a few revolvers, where is evidence of this "re-birth"? I know S&W used to make some DA/SA & DAO 10mm autos, still see them used occasionally for $500-600, but seems like real slim pickin's for 10mm fans, at least around here.

--wally.
 
Huh?

At yesterday's gun show (admittedly one of the smaller ones) I saw exactly three 10mm pistols -- new EAA Witness & Glock, used Kimber 1911 in 10mm. Kimber was priced $725 and this dealer has had it on his tables for at least a year now. I could have bought all the 10mm ammo displayed and not had 400 rounds to shoot.

Beyond the Glock & EAA Witness variations, and various 1911s in 10mm, along with a few revolvers, where is evidence of this "re-birth"? I know S&W used to make some DA/SA & DAO 10mm autos, still see them used occasionally for $500-600, but seems like real slim pickin's for 10mm fans, at least around here.

--wally.

You don't judge a caliber's success by what your local flea market of a gun show has.

Right now the market for 10mm has not been this plentiful since S&W 10xx series, current 10mm offerings include....

Glock - 2 models
Kimber - 2 models
Dan Wesson - 3 models, inclucding a new Commander sized 1911
S&W - 1 model
STI - 3 models
Les Baer - 2 models
Nighthawk Custom - 3 models
EAA Witness - 4 models

That is 20 models right there in current production with most of those coming on to the scene within the last year and half. Also there are rumors that Ruger is looking at using their new P345 platform for the 10mm as well as S&W looking at not only doing their 610 in a Scandium PD model but possibly doing a run of their new 1911 in 10mm as well.
 
As for the gap I am a nay sayer, I don't find it to be the awe inspiring Excalibur the gap heads would have me think it is but Springfield is really running with it. At SHOT they have 2 XD models on display a 5in tactical and 4in service as well as a 1911 gap with a new redesigned grip. They are also stating that they will be releasing a sub-compact XD and a micro-compact 1911. Judging by how well Springfield does as well as Glock with their new G38 and G39 which are also on display at SHOT that will tell the tale of the gap's success.
 
I've never seen a GAP gun but I like the idea since I have smallish hands and could not really get a comfortable grip on the G21.

Plus more guns in more calibers is a good thing in general.
 
I just don't get this one. :rolleyes: The gun scribes are writing as if this is the caliber of the age. Not enough difference to present a real choice from the time proven, readily available, old .45acp. :confused: By the way, if you hand load, there is virtually no difference.

I'll stick with the .45acp!
 
Yes 20 models of of 10mm, but I only see three basic designs: 2 sizes of Glock, 4 various CZ knock-off Tangfolio (EAA Witness) models and 14 guns of 1911 pattern in your list.

Nothing new beyond some high priced niche 1911 makers coming on board. S&W stopped making them. Time wil tell if the rumors of new 10mm are true.

I mean 10mm is here, its not going away any more than .32ACP or .25ACP will go away, but I hardly see any signs of growing popularity.

All kinds of weird stuff gets made -- .45 GAP, .25 NAA (.32 necked down to .25), and .32 NAA (.380 necked down .32) come to mind.


Plus more guns in more calibers is a good thing in general.
I don't see it this way. Slow moving stuff in the distribution channels increase the overhead rasing prices on the guns & ammo we really want.

--wally.
 
I've never seen a GAP gun but I like the idea since I have smallish hands and could not really get a comfortable grip on the G21.

I find the move towards trying to cram things into small frames to be a problem.
I would never buy an XD or Kahr because my hands are large and I can't get a grip on these pistols.

Of course I guess I could do things to "build up" these pistols.

I definitely DON'T want to see large frame pistols get phased out. So for personal selfish reasons I really don't want to see the 45GAP succeed.
 
I don't see it this way. Slow moving stuff in the distribution channels increase the overhead rasing prices on the guns & ammo we really want.

I get that but the more options there are the greater chance of someone getting exactly what the need out of a gun.
 
I definitely DON'T want to see large frame pistols get phased out. So for personal selfish reasons I really don't want to see the 45GAP succeed.


I don't think large frame guns are going anywhere. And .45 ACP will always be a big seller up until we get Star Wars type blasters.
 
This worth what you paid for it.

1. I think Glock is not really up to speed in its design theory. The 36 was not successful in part for its awful looking and feeling grip.

2. The 37-39 have fat slides that doesn't appeal. They should have moved heaven and earth to figure that out. I think there was rush to produce, that might sink those guns.

3. If Springfield can do GAPs in their normal XD line and have those 7/8 1911s - that might be a good line. The latter is really attractive to me as a carry gun, if reliable.

4. Similar if Kahr can do one.
 
At yesterday's gun show (admittedly one of the smaller ones) I saw exactly three 10mm pistols -- new EAA Witness & Glock, used Kimber 1911 in 10mm. Kimber was priced $725 and this dealer has had it on his tables for at least a year now. I could have bought all the 10mm ammo displayed and not had 400 rounds to shoot.

Beyond the Glock & EAA Witness variations, and various 1911s in 10mm, along with a few revolvers, where is evidence of this "re-birth"? I know S&W used to make some DA/SA & DAO 10mm autos, still see them used occasionally for $500-600, but seems like real slim pickin's for 10mm fans, at least around here.

They are so popular, they can't keep them on the shelves!! :evil:
 
Gun Tests did a review of the 45GAP recently and they found it inaccurate. Granted, it could improve sometime in the future.

Also, to duplicate the 45ACP ballistics for the 230-grainers, the 45GAP has to operate at higher pressures. I'll stick with the 45ACP.
 
Perhaps I am just dense in my thinking (and obviously in my choice of spelling), but can there be an explanation how shortening the OAL of a round increases the number of rounds in a magazine? After all, a 10MM and 40S&W can fit the same number of rounds in a magazine of the same width and height. Magazine capacities have very little to do with their cartridge length and everthing to do with their cartridge width. If you stack 10 acp and 10 gap rounds, they are the same height. If you stagger them in the same percentage, they are the same height. Now, in a tube-magazine, I could see how you get more, but this whole "you get more rounds in the same size magzine" arguement is insane.

Now, you can fit the same number of rounds in a smaller grip circumference to be sure. But the grip width will be unchanged, only front-to-back. The grip becomes more squared rather then rectangular. Yet, the foot-print against the palm remains exactly the same. The only difference would be how far the finger wrap around the other side.

But, the laws of dimensions do not allow more rounds in the same size. You could not fit more rounds of GAP into an ACP magazine (you could not fit 13 rounds into an 11 round ACP magazine). You cannot fit 8 rounds into a 7 round 1911 magazine. Indeed, in the 1911 platform, you could get no more rounds. And, to get more rounds for the grip circumference, you alter the grip position (because you have to go fatter). So, to get more rounds for circumference, which is the ONLY possible way to call more rounds per package, you have to make a fat grip, which is more noticeable and more difficult to grasp than a longer grip. And in doing so, you make the grip chunkier than the slimmer grip of similar circumference but much slimmer profile.

In other words, to achieve more rounds, you lose out in chunkier grips. To achieve smaller grip (which was what it was all about in the first place) you lose rounds. So, to gain the greatest advantage with the GAP, smaller grip, you lose rounds and the other "great" advantage in the round.

And, since you could get an Astra A-75, which is quite a compact pistol, in .45ACP, the "advantage" of the GAP becomes even less obvious.

But, to each his own. Who ever would like to own a GAP, do so and have fun. It ain't sliced bread, though, and king of the hill will never apply to it. Worse, now that the AWB has expired, the 9mm will become king in large and small handguns again (as much as I like my ACP). And, since folks will be reminded of the qualities of the 9mm, and since they can get more rounds of 9mm in any platform over the GAP, there will be even less reason for it.

Remember, the ACP became popular again because if the pistol has to be that big and only offer 10 rounds, then make those rounds bigger. Or, if one can only get 10 rounds, make the pistol smaller. The 9mm dominates the smaller specturm and the ACP the larger. Now the AWB is gone, the 9mm will once again dominate the larger as well (why settle for 10 rounds when you can have 17). And, since the GAP will always offer fewer rounds per magazine than the 40S&W, it will settle in that little niche between the 40 and the acp. That's not a big realm to live in.

Worse, since police agencies are deciding the 40S&W wasn't all that hot afterall, then why would they go with GAP, which is also higher pressure?

Ash
 
Saw the Glock and the GAP ammo today. I don't know. I like my .45 ACP and my feeling is if it ain't broke don't fix it. I am sure there are some that will love it but heck I own a .40 and a .45ACP and don't really have a yen for the GAP. I think it will be an acquired taste.
 
Over 20 years ago I watched in awe, the abilitiy of a 5'2" petite 13 year old young lady who might have weighed 105 pounds with an out of the box Colt .45 calibre Lightweight Commander.
I am positive she could outshoot 99 and 44/100ths of the men on the planet.
How? Because she WANTED to. She said the LW Commander fit her better than any other gun except for a 1970s vintage Detective special. But the DS just wasn't as accurate.

This young lady had TINY hands. but the 1911 pattern grip was no problem for her. It was the weight that kept her from wanting a full sized Government of Combat Commander.

But that's one of the beauties of the design. I have never heard anyone complain that trigger reach was excessive on a 1911.

But that dynamic changes when you go to a double action or safe action trigger. The finger has further to reach. So grip length becomes important.

Will the .45GastonAllPowerful ever amount to anything?
Who knows only time will tell.
I believe if the .45GastonAin'tPerfect had been created to be a larger bore version of the .380, to be used in smaller pocket guns that it would have been a huge success.

As it is, my favorite indoor range, which stocks such cartridges as .303 British have not a single round of .45GAP available. Even with the weekly combat shoot no one has yet shown up and asked for any.

If the .45short+P round does succeed it will not be because of a single cent of my money.
But I am sure there are plenty of others who will buy it.
After all people did buy a lot of Yugo automobiles.
At first.
 
BTW, if I remember the advertisment on the back page of the Rifleman correctly it said the .45 GAP had the same ballistics as a standard .45 ACP, etc.
This is incorrect and is what will probably result in GAPs downfall. The pressure spec for GAP is the same as .45acp +P, not standard .45acp.

This means that the guns are smaller but they have to handle larger loads. Anyone else see the contradiction there? Just like the .40 didn't really work in 9mm frames, the .45 gap doesn't really work in .40 frames either. They have to beef everything up including and especially the slide mass.

I think there may be a market for the round, but it will be small. There are some people who may want a double stack .45, but have smaller hands. So gap will work better for them than acp. Other than that, there really isn't anything you can do with GAP that you can't do with .45acp +P. And the larger, heavier acp guns will probably handle the power better anyway.
 
I could care less what it says it is, ACP, GAP, MAG, ***? If there is a pistol that I like that becomes available in a .45 caliber that wasn't before, like the XD for example, I'll buy it, even though they should have made a XD-45ACP. (which they may do?)
 
Both will co exist:

I love the .45 acp 1911A1. I believe that both will stand the test of time.
Why?
A. You can shoot .45 GAP through a 625 revolver, if you use full moon clips. Like shooting .38 in a .357.
B. For Carpal Tunnel syndrome patients, like myself; GAP gives the same wallop that ACP does with reduced kick.
C. Prices on GAP-chambered pistols are getting cheaper, very fast.
D. .45 Colt was never replaced by .45 acp. Likewise, .45 acp will not be replaced by .45 GAP.
E. I want carbines in both calibres-make both guns more practical.
Let's all join forces, to build the best possible world; to benet both ACPers and Gappers!
 
B. For Carpal Tunnel syndrome patients, like myself; GAP gives the same wallop that ACP does with reduced kick.

How do you figure? recoil is proportional to mass X velocity, so if the 45 GAP matches the .45ACP in performance it's recoil will be the same for the same bullet weight. Only a heavier gun, or lighter and/or slower bullets can help here.

--wally.
 
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