45 Schofield & 45 Auto Rim in S&W Mountain Gun

[jski]

Will the Starline brass for the 45 Schofield fit/load into my S&W Mountain Gun?

Will the Starline brass for the 45 Auto Rim fit/load into my S&W Mountain Gun?

Starline does have this warning:

THIS CASE WILL NOT WORK IN SINGLE ACTION REVOLVERS CHAMBERED FOR .45 AUTO (such as the Ruger Blackhawk with .45 Auto cylinder) OR IN DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVERS DESIGNED FOR .45 COLT AND 45 AUTO IN THE SAME CYLINDER (SUCH AS THE RUGER REDHAWK OR S&W GOVERNOR).

 

[cfullgraf]

The 45 Auto Rim should only work in double action revolvers with 45 ACP cylinders designed to use moon clips. S&W and Colt Model 1917's are two examples that can shoot the 45 Auto Rim. 45 Auto Rim will not work in a single action revolver.

The rim on a 45 Auto Rim is designed to simulate a 45 ACP case inserted in a moon or half moon clip. The rims are thicker than normal rims of revolver cartridges.

45 Schofield should work in any 45 Colt cylinder. Essentially, the 45 Schofield is a 45 "Short Colt". The 45 Schofield revolver was a break open revolver with a shorter cylinder than a standard 45 Colt. S&W managed to convince the Army to buy the Schofield revolver for a while in the late 1800's.

I hope this helps.

 

[jski]

The 45 Auto Rim should only work in double action revolvers with 45 ACP cylinders designed to use moon clips. S&W and Colt Model 1917's are two examples that can shoot the 45 Auto Rim. 45 Auto Rim will not work in a single action revolver.

The rim on a 45 Auto Rim is designed to simulate a 45 ACP case inserted in a moon or half moon clip. The rims are thicker than normal rims of revolver cartridges.

45 Schofield should work in any 45 Colt cylinder. Essentially, the 45 Schofield is a 45 "Short Colt". The 45 Schofield revolver was a break open revolver with a shorter cylinder than a standard 45 Colt. S&W managed to convince the Army to buy the Schofield revolver for a while in the late 1800's.

I hope this helps.

So the Auto Rim will NOT work in my S&W Mountain Gun?

And the 45 Schofield will work in my Mountain Gun.

 

[jski]

Got this from the comment section on Starline 45 Auto Rim website:

Got some to try in my S&W 625... fit like a glove !!! Very happy with them and just ordered 500 more

Great brass, re-loads fast & easy. fits great in S&W 625. shoots & ejects with no problems

Got these for my S&W 625, so I didn't have to use a moon clip... Easy to re-load, fit perfecting the pistol, and eject smooth and fast. Highly recommend .. Ordered by phone and staff was very friendly and helpful

If true, why bother with the Cowboy Special brass?

 

[cfullgraf]

So the Auto Rim will NOT work in my S&W Mountain Gun?

And the 45 Schofield will work in my Mountain Gun.

I'm not specifically familiar with the chambering in the S&W Mountain Gun.

But, if it is designed to chamber 45 ACP ammunition with moon clips, 45 Auto Rim will work.

If it is chambered for 45 Colt, the 45 Schofield cases will work. The 45 Auto Rim will not.

I have an S&W Model 22, Model 25-2 and a Model 625, all three are chambered for 45 ACP with moon clips. I could use 45 Auto Rim in these revolvers. The 45 Auto Rim case was developed shortly after WWI so that folks buying surplus S&W and Colt Model 1917 could shoot the guns conveniently without using moon clips.

 

[jski]

No recessed cylinder for a moon clip with the Mountain Gun. I must admit, I didn’t really think the Auto Rim would work.

Actually the Schofield is the more interesting cartridge ... historically speaking. It is the cartridge on which the 45 ACP is based, not the 45 Colt as many believe.

 

[Jim Watson]

We don't know what you are talking about.
SW made Mountain Guns in both .45 ACP (will shoot .45 Auto Rim, not Scofield) and .45 Colt (will shoot .45 S&W/Schofield/Goverment and .45 Cowboy not Auto Rim).

.45 Cowboy is .45 ACP length and .45 Colt rim.
Made for CAS where it holds the minimum 1 cc of black powder to qualify for that Division.

 

[cfullgraf]

No recessed cylinder for a moon clip with the Mountain Gun. I must admit, I didn’t really think the Auto Rim would work.

Actually the Schofield is the more interesting cartridge ... historically speaking. It is the cartridge on which the 45 ACP is based, not the 45 Colt as many believe.

[/QUOTE]

No, the 45 Schofield predates the 45 ACP by 30 some years. The 45 Schofield was a "short 45 Colt" developed for the break top S&W Model 3 revolver for quicker loading.

 

[jski]

The Army stop purchases of 45 Colt ammo and pretty stuck to Schofield ammo after 1880. It worked in both the Colt SAA and the S&W Schofield. Evidently, the troops preferred it to the heavy hitting, heavy recoil 45 Colt.

When the Army reissued the SAA in the Philippines because of the ineffectiveness of the 38 Long Colt, they issued Schofield rounds. It proved to be a very effective round.

So when asked to develop a new cartridge for the new autoloader (1911), the cartridge they wanted was an equivalent to the effective 45 Schofield they’d been using in the Philippines.

 

[murf]

the original schofield ammo rim diameter was too large to fit right in the colt saa revolver. the war department fixed that in 1887: https://military.wikia.org/wiki/.45_Schofield

apparently, new 45 s&w cases have the .512" rim.

luck,

murf

 

[jski]

the original schofield ammo rim diameter was too large to fit right in the colt saa revolver. the war department fixed that in 1887: https://military.wikia.org/wiki/.45_Schofield

apparently, new 45 s&w cases have the .512" rim.

luck,

murf

I believe they loaded every other chamber, making it a 3 rounder. Better than a 0 rounder if you had a Schofield with 45 Colt ammo. But then that was fixed with the new rim diameters on the Schofield ammo.

I DO LOVE HISTORY! (Too bad they don’t teach it any longer.)

 

[jski]

Here’s a more definitive statement:

The S&W revolver used the .45 S&W Schofield, a shorter cartridge, which would also work in the Colt, however the Army's S&W Schofield revolvers could not chamber the longer .45 Colt, so in 1874 Frankford Arsenal, then almost exclusive supplier of small arms ammunition to the U.S. Army, dropped production of the .45 Colt in favor of the .45 S&W round. This resolved the Army's ammunition logistic problems ...

 

[jski]

Interesting history...

 

[mcb]

If your Mountain Gun is in 45 Colt then it will work with 45 Colt, 45 Schofield and 45 Cowboy Special.

If you Mountain Gun is in 45 ACP, then it will work with 45 ACP, 45 GAP, and 45 Auto Rim

If your Mountain Gun is in 45 Colt and has been cut for moonclips then it will work with all of the above except 45 Auto Rim. The rimless cartridges will require moonclips the rimmed cartridges the moonclips will be optional.

45 Cowboy Special was made to have a similar length and case volume as 45 ACP while having the rim compatible with 45 Colt. As long are your revolver is strong enough 45 ACP data works nicely in 45 Cowboy special brass.

 

[Jim Watson]

As best I understand it, the original .45 Smith and Wesson Schofield's rim diameter was too large for .45 Colt SAA so .45 Government had a smaller rim diameter for commonality. How much smaller, I don't know. Same as .45 Colt or intermediate? Dimensions are hard to come by.

Intersting note: Colt made the SAA in .455 Webley and .476 Enfield. Listed as .530" rim diameter. How do you reckon they did that? An article in The Handgunner, Ltd. said that instruments from the Rolls Royce toolroom were used to study the matter.

 

[jski]

As best I understand it, the original .45 Smith and Wesson Schofield's rim diameter was too large for .45 Colt SAA so .45 Government had a smaller rim diameter for commonality. How much smaller, I don't know. Same as .45 Colt or intermediate? Dimensions are hard to come by.

Intersting note: Colt made the SAA in .455 Webley and .476 Enfield. Listed as .530" rim diameter. How do you reckon they did that? An article in The Handgunner, Ltd. said that instruments from the Rolls Royce toolroom were used to study the matter.

I believe this will answer your question:

The .45 Schofield cartridge was shorter than the .45 Long Colt. It could be used in both the Schofield and the Colt 45 Peacemaker, but the .45 Long Colt was too long to use in the Schofield. As a result, by the 1880s the army finally standardized on a .45 cartridge designed to fire in both revolvers, the M1887 Military Ball Cartridge. The M1887 was made at Frankford Arsenal, and was issued only to the military. It had a shortened case and reduced rim; as it was short enough to fit the Schofield, and its rim was not needed for the rod-ejector Single Action Army, the M1887 would fire and eject from both revolvers.

The M1887 used a Schofield 45 case with a slightly reduced rim diameter.