45 Super for Woods?

[HK G3]

Hey all,

My question mainly pertains to whether or not it is reasonable to go from .45 +p to .45 Super when out in the woods.

The main purpose for the sidearm would be if we were to encounter a hostile mountain lion (there's warnings about all over the place these days - apparently they've been stalking humans quite frequently) or potentially a black bear.

Obviously, 12 gauge or something really powerful is ideal, but does anyone know if a .45 Super would offer any significant benefits towards stopping a hostile bear or cougar should it become necessary to do so over a standard .45 or .45 +p load? I verified my gun can shoot .45 Super, so I'm not worried about that.

Thanks!

 

[Mainsail]

Have you considered a 10mm? For that size critter the 10mm with a hot Doubletap 200gr hardcast would work well. If you want to go light get the Glock G20SF.

 

[rcmodel]

It's a very bad idea.

Better you have a magazine full of standard ammo you can control during aimed rapid fire then one huge blast that kicks you off target and takes more time to recover for the next shot.

That is the beauty of the .45 ACP in the first place.
Maximum power with low recoil and fast recovery.

It's best to practice with what you carry. And I don't care what gun you have, .45 Super is going to beat the snot out of it if you practice with it as much as you should.

Personally I see very little need for even +P for an encounter with a mountain lion.
Like most cats, they are easy to kill, nine lives not withstanding.
Professional hound hunters use .22 mag revolvers to knock them out of trees.

rc

 

[KBintheSLC]

My personal choice for the woods is a 10mm. However, for black bears and mtn lions you ought to be fine with a regular .45 acp loaded with 230g ball ammo. Think about it this way...

Average black bear 200-300 lbs
Average mtn lion 75-150 lbs

These are not huge animals. They are about the size of a large person, for which a .45 acp is designed to stop. A fella recently took down an attacking black bear in UT with a .45 acp. It may not be the best choice, but it should work if you hit your target. Now grizzly territory is another story...

 

[sixgun_grunt]

dont have much knowledge of mountain lions but i would think that a high quality defensive 45 acp ammo like hydrashoks would be a decent choice, just make sure you practice with whatever ammo you choose to carry to make sure its reliable and accurate in your pistol

 

[Vern Humphrey]

When I carry a centerfire, I carry either a .357 or a .45 Colt revolver in the woods. My logic is those two rounds are pretty much do-it-all, and I don't have to scrabble around in the leaves looking for my ejected brass.

 

[rcmodel]

Me too.

A revolver is gonna work much better to reach around behind you and blow a mountain lion off your back.

No chance of it failing to eject if it gets full of cat hairballs!

rc

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I have carried a 625 with super 200gr hornady c/t loaded but never had to use it. same with a .357 mag but a .22LR Ruger I've used some and a Marlin Camp carbine.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A revolver is gonna work much better to reach around behind you and blow a mountain lion off your back.

That's what the bump is for on the grip safety -- a good defensive auto should allow you to shoot someone (or something) off your back.

 

[HK G3]

The ammo that I'm currently carrying for self defense is Hornady TAP 230 gr JHP +p.

I've practiced with it, and feel competent using these rounds.

From this thread, it seems that the consensus is that this round would be adequate to dispatch a hostile cougar/black bear? I've seen that bear skulls can be incredibly thick, and that was why I was wondering if the extra velocity offered by the .45 Super would be worth it. Thankfully I don't have to ever worry about grizzlies around here... Unfortunately, I don't really have enough money for a new gun, though I've been thinking about buying a .40 USP for the express purpose of doing a 10mm conversion for awhile now...

And yes, I feel I could shoot something off my back should, God forbid, the need arise.

 

[Kevin77]

I know a guy that was attacked by a mountain lion and he killed it with a stick and a rock. Most guys that hunt them use either .22 or .22mag. Most black bears could be scared off but a .45 acp should kill one. I would use fmj though since overpenetration is not an issue and bears do have pretty thick skulls.

 

[BlindJustice]

Cats are thin skinned, Bears have a big layer of fat underneath the thick fur Black Bears vary in size around the country. BIggest ones taken - Boone & Crockett = Pennsylvania and N. Carolina Thre's better places than a skull shot to kill a bear -or- shoot the shoulder to slow em down from the
side a shot behind the shoulder if not low for the heart will just
pass into or through the lungs.

you want a tough JHP or solid cast bullet - use what you can hit something with.... and you'll be able to afford a heck of a lot more .45 +P
than .45 Super

1911 56" Bbl - carry load Double Tap +P 230 Gr.
but for the woods I'd consider my 625 5" Bbl. I have
some stout .45 Auto RIm loads,

Randall

 

[franconialocal]

I'm not experienced with .45 Super but I am familiar with .45 +P (putting down injured game on patrol). I've used the 12 ga. for most moose encounters but a clean headshot with my .45 (Sig P-220) always works. It's also worked on problem bears, as we've had our fair share of "fish and game" calls as well in the urban dowtown. We tend to try to use a lager caliber (12 ga. / .223 depending) if we can, and we try for more of a 'hunters shot' behind the shoulder/more lung-heart-vitals rather than a headshot, but somtimes the sidearm is appropriate too.

As far as big cats, they are only rumored to be around this area with several 'positive sightings'. I have no doubt whatsoever that any .45 will work just fine. Why not have the mag capacity??
Hope this helps!

 

[Mr.510]

.45 Super in an excellent 'woods' round. The energy in ft.-lbs. is roughly equal to 10mm (if you can even find full-power 10mm) but the bullet is 1/16" bigger in diameter so it'll poke a bigger hole. Whatever gun you have, unless it's engraved ".45Super" it needs the recoil spring upgraded to shoot Super without rapid damage. Like anything else, the hotter the ammo the shorter the gun's life. Like 10mm, .45 Super is hard on guns. All autoloaders in these chamberings suffer from frame battering, it's the nature of the beast. You have to run a much stiffer recoil spring and a heavy slide to deal with these powerful cartridges. A stiff spring slams the slide forward into battery much harder and that slowly beats the gun to death. Like any of my other important gear, when my gun wears out I'll buy a new one.

I say up the recoil spring and put a box of Super through it. If you shoot it well and can deal with the recoil effectively carry Super for the woods after you've put a couple hundred of your chosen round down the pipe. I agree with rcmodel on the point that being able to control the gun for follow up shots is very important.... but there are lots of people (including me) that will tell you .44 Magnum is the minimum acceptable caliber for bear defense. The hardest kicking .45 Super is easier to control than the softest .44 Magnum!

For Cougar regular .45ACP is fine but +P is better if you're used to it. I carry +Ps specifically for Cougar defense. Cougars are a lot like people, but meaner. For bear, regardless of size, no handgun is adequate. Sure, almost any gun will kill the bear.... eventually. ALL bears are big, mean, and blindingly fast. Add pissed off and/or wounded and my opinion is you need the biggest cannon you can carry and shoot well.

YMMV

 

[justashooter in pa]

i agree that a big autoloading handgun with loaded chamber is optimal in bear or cat attack situations. you will not have time to swing a shotgun or rifle. i would prefer a 1911 type cocked and locked with starfire hollowpoints or something similar if i didn't handload. if handloading is an option i would look for hard cast SWC that would feed reliably and load to 45+p levels.

jacketed bullets can be diverted by bone, and a black bear of 300-400 pounds is not built lightly. hard lead semi wadcutter tend to cut right through bone and go to vitals. a 225 semi wadcutter at +p velocities will have 20-30 inches penetration on soft tissue.

most black bear attacks over the last 30 years have involved older bears with bad teeth and/or debilitating wounds. these bears are still a handful, and are often attacking with intent to eat you (about twice a year, nationwide). occasionally you have gotten between a sow and her cubs. in populated areas you might have run into a welfare bear, used to being fed for free from the local trash cans.

best shot on a bear? through the upper palate when he opens his mouth in threat. it's a hard one to make under stress, but an instant stopper. best shot on a big cat? anything in the upper body you can connect on.

 

[BlindJustice]

For a good set of recoil springs

Wilson Combat Spring Caddy

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/a_spring_caddy.asp

Wilson COmbat also offers Heavy Duty Recoil Springs
and they should they offer a 1911 Variant in .460 Roland

Randall

 

[harrygunner]

Double Tap's 185gr .45 ACP ammo has nearly the same ballistics from a 5" 1911 as its 180gr 10mm ammo from a Glock 29.

Depends on which side of Arizona you're walking in. I carry something bigger in the eastern Arizona mountains (a .44 Mag), but have carried my Glock 29 around Flagstaff, Tucson (western part).

 

[Prosser]

I LOVE .451 Detonics, the original .45 Super. That said, the problem is .45 bullets used in .45 Super tend to penetrate about the same as the service rounds, around 14". The bullet opens up faster, bigger, and, this is where all that extra velocity goes, bigger temp cavity, and, bigger permanent cavity, but not much longer. 14" sucks for a mountain lion, since they tend to be MUCH longer.

If I was using .45 Super, I'd load a 260 grain LFN, @ about 1000 fps, and use the penetration you get to go end to end on the cat, and, give me a chance at a brain, or spine shot.

As for black bears: Tim Sundles, Buffalobore, swears by the 260 grain .45 Colt, at 1450 fps. Apparently this has culled hundreds of bears, and, been very effective. I'd try and find a round that was similar for black bear.

So, for mountain lions, .45 Super is going to work, but, you need to pick a heavy round that is going to penetrate, end to end is a good thing. For bears, it's a punch press, needing a heavy bullet, 230-260 grains, with a flat nose, to penetrate straight, and long.

.45 Super will push a 230 at 1100 fps, and, a 260 at 1000 fps. Pick one round, and remember bears are super unlikely to attack, and, the round you want should be for the mountain lion...

All this said, I'd look at the .460 Rowland: pretty much a 45 caliber, 44 magnum, in an auto, with under 260 grain bullets...

 

[HK G3]

Thanks again for the additional input.

I agree with the bit about bears being unlikely to attack, and I'd prefer to have a round for a big cat in the pipe than one for bears.

That said, I do reload, but shooting lead really isn't an option with the barrel that I have.

I was actually thinking my best bet would be to develop some sort of load specifically for big cat - does anyone have any suggestions on a particular type of bullet? It seems there is some disagreement as to whether or not to go with JHP or FMJ on this one.

 

[ArmedBear]

I don't have to scrabble around in the leaves looking for my ejected brass.

Now THAT is a dedicated reloader.

Wards off a mountain lion or bear attack, and the first thing he thinks about is saving the cases!

 

[Noveldoc]

Question. Anyone know about 45 Super in a 645 Series SW? I bought a 4506-1 with a recoil spring so heavy it took both hands to pull the slide back, barely. And it has a beefed up ejector. Suspect it was modified for Super.

I have heard these guns are built so tough they just need to spring and ejector and hold up pretty well with Super.

Tom