.454 Casull from S&W's X-frame

[Snowdog]

This is posted for a buddy of mine that doesn't believe in the need for computers.

Is Smith and Wesson likely to offer the X-frame currently used for the .500 Magnum in .454 Casull?
If so, is there any word on when that will be?

Also, is there any other manufacturers besides Freedom Arms, Ruger and Taurus that produce a revolver in this caliber?

Thanks.

 

[hksw]

Magnum Research's BFR.

Others custom built.

 

[HSMITH]

The 500 is WAY bigger than it would need to be for the 454. They won't make it in 454 when they could adapt an N-frame easily. I would bet if they do anything on the 500 platform it will involve necking the current 500 down to 45 and making the 454 seem like a pop gun....

 

[John Ross]

Er... no. The .454 will NOT work on an N-frame, even one with a 5-shot cylinder. The frame (and thus the cylinder) is too small for a .45 Long Colt diameter case operating at 65,000 PSI.

It is *possible* the X-frame would be offered in .454, but that would be wasting the long cylinder, which is one of the X-frame's best features. I would rather see the gun chambered in the various Supermag calibers, i.e. a 7-shot .445.

A .454/.500 case, as mentioned, might be interesting. Keep in mind that the .500, when using a proper short-shanked (.200") and long-nosed (.700") 400 grain cast bullet can achieve 2000 FPS with safe pressures.

Word from the engineers 11 months ago is that a .223 version was being considered. For a variety of reasons I think that idea is ill-advised, but I may be proven wrong.

My efforts will be dedicated toward lobbying S&W for building the .500 in more barrel lengths (esp. 5"-5 1/2") without comps or full underlugs.

JR

 

[Stainz]

I believe, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that the beefy S&W 500 was designed for 50kpsi rounds, thus the standard SS. The Ruger was 'over-built' for the higher pressure .454 rounds (65kpsi rated - as built, considerably stronger!) - and employs both a space-age SS variant and hardening process. In the cylinder length arguement, consider the N-frame 625 in .45 ACP (~1.200" OAL) vs the 629's .44 Magnum (~1.730+" OAL) capability - just offer a shorter cylinder and deeper set barrel/forcing cone, a la the .45 ACP 625.

My first DA revolver was my Ruger SRH in .454 - and I am still partial to it. It was followed up by eight DA's from S&W... I'd add another big one, if, like my SRH .454, it would shoot el-cheapo .45 Colts, too. Great idea - a 500 in .454 Casull - if indeed it would stand the added psi.

Stainz

 

[John Ross]

Stainz, S&W has applied to SAAMI for 60,000 PSI as the operating pressure of the .500. They have okayed all my loads they've tested that are below this number.

The special steel and heat-treat of the SRH in .454 is correct, but not (just) because the .454 is high pressure. Ruger did it because of their unwillingness to build the SRH .454 as a 5-shot. Look at the chamber walls on your gun. They are MUCH thinner than S&W's .500. Bowen, Linebaugh, and Taurus have NO problem building 5-shot .454s on RH and BH size frames without resorting to exotic alloys and supersecret heat treat. They go with 5 shots and leave more metal supporting the case.

Putting a short .454 cylinder and a long barrel shank in an X-frame (like the 625 you mention) and shooting 60,000 PSI .454 loads is a recipe for a split barrel shank, probably on the first shot. With 60,000 PSI ammo you MUST support the barrel where the bullet first engages the rifling.

JR

 

[HSMITH]

John, the case will fit, it would fit in my 25-5 with a tiny bit of reaming and still be able to shoot the heavies. Ruger has proven that thin cylinder walls are possible and safe, and these days S&W is close to Ruger in metallurgical abilities. Take a look at a 454 SRH, those things are THIN!!! I can load 45 colts to an OAL of 1.670" with impunity. If the forcing cone was shorter you could hit 1.85" and still have a forcing cone outside the frame. The frame can be made of a stronger more flexible alloy as well, the materials are out there to be used.

It is my opinion that an N-frame dimensionally could be fielded in a 6 shot 454 if the right materials were used. Cost might be a hurdle using new materials and new processes, but there is no reason it can't be done from a technical point of view.

 

[John Ross]

Of course it will *fit* physically, it's just a little longer .45 Colt.

But the SRH with 6 shots is IMO the absolute limit of cylinder wall thinness permitted for the .454's pressures. We all agree that an N-frame's cylinder is SMALLER in diameter than a Redhawk's, yes?

S&W N-frames in .44 Mag do not particulary like a steady diet of 65,000 PSI loads. I submit that chambered in .454, they would be even less happy.

I say this from having fired well over 100,000 rounds of .44 magnum ammo in the last 32 years, 95% of it at factory power levels or greater, and having bought the Super Vel ballistics lab (including pressure gun) in 1976 when that company went out of business.

I realize you are proposing that new materials and processes might make this possible, but such a gun would not have the safety margin that I want in a 65,000 psi working pressure gun.

If more power than a .44 in a 3-lb. DA gun is what you want, I would MUCH rather see S&W build a scandium frame .500 with a 5" barrel and their regular stainless cylinder. They might even get close to 3 lbs. with a steel frame and just a scandium barrel shroud of a thin contour.

Doing the math, a 450 at 1500 out of a 48 ounce 5" .500 is the same recoil velocity as a 320 at 1200 out of a 329, and that's tolerable with the right grips. 450 at 1500 beats anything the 454 has to offer.

IMO the 500 is light-years ahead of the .454 because the case capacity is so much bigger, especially in that 2.3" cylinder. You can get huge energy at half the pressure of the .454. This is not theory--I'm doing a LOT of development work with the .500. The more I work with it, the more amazed I get.

JR

 

[BluesBear]

The S&W N-frame was designed around the .44 caliber cartridges. It was never intended to be a .45. However it was discovered that low pressure .45s could be used in it.

Advances in metal after WWII enabled stronger guns to be made on the N-frame. However in .45 the cylinder walls, with the locking bolt notches right over the chamber are THIN.

Even with super-duper alloys you still have a THIN chamber with a notch cut into it at its weakest point. 65,000PSI is a LOT of pressure. I would never trust an N-frame no matter what the material.

Perhaps an easier way for adapt the X-frame would eb to produce an X-frame with an integeral "lug" inside the cylinder window to support the barrel. This would leave just a small portion of the forcing cone exposed for proper B/C gap.

Actually since everything S&W produces is now performed on CNC machinery it would be possible to just dial in shorter dimentions for the X-frame and make a shorter version for .454 and some yet bo be announced .44 ctg. Perhaps something like a .429 S&W Super Magnum. (hint, hint).

The shorter frame could also be used for a .500S&W Special in shorter barrel lengths. The same barrels could even be used.

Hey it makes as much sense as the .50GI semi-auto.

 

[John Ross]

Quote:

"Actually since everything S&W produces is now performed on CNC machinery it would be possible to just dial in shorter dimentions for the X-frame and make a shorter version for .454. The shorter frame could also be used for a .500S&W Special in shorter barrel lengths. The same barrels could even be used."

I don't know if this would be quite as easy as described, but this is a GREAT idea that I believe is a real possibility for the future. S&W understandably will not admit to what they intend for future projects but Herb Belin has accused me more than once of having ESP.

My plea is that if we see a .500 Special, they make the case EXACTLY as much shorter as they shorten the cylinder (thus the chamber throats would be the same length.). That way all our bullet molds that take advantage of the long throat would work in the .500 Special.

A shorty X-frame in .454 or .500 Special with a 5" barrel of Mountain Gun contour would balance great and be a very good seller. I would bet a lot of money on that.

JR

 

[BluesBear]

John,

Feel free to convey my ideas to them.

 

[Wil Terry]

YOU BOYS ARE IN FOR A BIG! 45 SURPRISE SOON

OHHHHHHHHHHHHH BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!!

 

[seeker_two]

I would bet if they do anything on the 500 platform it will involve necking the current 500 down to 45 and making the 454 seem like a pop gun....

A revolver that can shoot .458Lott-sized bullets at the same power as the rifle itself...NO THANKS!!!

John, the case will fit, it would fit in my 25-5 with a tiny bit of reaming and still be able to shoot the heavies

!!!DON'T DO IT!!! S&W 25's don't have the same heat treatment as the 29's. Shooting .454-class loads in a 25 is just courting disaster...

I'd like to see S&W do an N-Frame 5-shot in .454 or .480 w/ the same (or better) heat treatment as the 29's have--for that matter, have ALL the N-frames heat-treated. Heck, I still want an L-frame .41Mag & .44SPL w/ the heat treatment...

My guess is that the next X-frame will be in .223 or .475 Linebaugh...

 

[Stainz]

JR

I thought I measured the chamber-chamber wall thickness some time back as the same on the RB as the SRH - and the OD-chamber was thicker on the SRH. I did not check the bolt-stop notch depths, however. Of course, if I remember correctly, the RB is made of 4140 SS, the SRH .454 is quite different. I will have to check another RB... I bought my SRH .454 more as a tribute to it's engineering... perhaps a S&W 500 is in my near futute...

A .500 'Special' sounds interesting... of course, the .454's 'Special' is the venerable and widely available .45 Colt. That 450gr .5" bullet at 1500fps is impressive - but only ~5% greater in KE than the faster & lighter Hornady 240gr XTP. Recent samples again have been rated at 2,000 fps vs the one-time de-rated 1,900 fps they offered earlier. I chrono-ed several ~ 1975 fps at the range last year in my 7.5" SRH - before I worried about the muzzle blast and quit (Someone else shot that poor chrono several weeks ago... RIP!).

Yes, I'll keep my SRH... maybe eventually get another one to shorten (4"-5"). I will also look for an affordable 500... it is impressive and a great example of forward-looking designers at S&W - something to be applauded, for sure.

Stainz

 

[HSMITH]

seeker, thanks for your concern but I am well aware of the limitations of the 25-5. I was merely illustrating the frame window and cylinder were already of adequate size.

BTW, ALL N-frames recieve the same heat treat as of about 1988 and possibly earlier. The 25-7 Model of 1989 is of the same strength and heat treat as the 29-5 or 629-3 and later guns with the "durability" upgrades and all of that. The older revolvers are the ones that did not get the heat treat.

As far as the 458 Lott in a handgun? I'd shoot one, why not?

Skin and bones grow back

I would bet lunch on it being a 45 cal super mangler I mean Magnum next, you can't go past .500" without a smooth bore and a stock but people ALWAYS want more. More of anything with the 500 is slippery ground, they better cut the bullet weight and increase speed.........

 

[John Ross]

Quote: "I thought I measured the chamber-chamber wall thickness some time back as the same on the RB as the SRH - and the OD-chamber was thicker on the SRH. I did not check the bolt-stop notch depths, however. Of course, if I remember correctly, the RB is made of 4140 SS, the SRH .454 is quite different. I will have to check another RB... I bought my SRH .454 more as a tribute to it's engineering... perhaps a S&W 500 is in my near futute..."

I'm not sure I understand this post. It seems a response to a misreading of comments I made about chamber wall thickness. (And BTW 4140 is a tool steel. I think you meant 410.)

I'll restate my premise: The Ruger Super Redhawk cylinder in 454 is built of special Carpenter 465 steel with a special heat-treat because of the company's insistence on making the gun hold 6 shots. The factory Taurus and the Bowen and Linebaugh 454 conversions of Redhawks and Super Blackhawks are 5-shot guns, and the custom jobs have cylinders a little bit bigger in diameter, filling out the frame window just a little more. They handle the Casull's pressure fine with 'normal' stainless steel because there is a lot more steel around the case in these 5-shot cylinders compared to what supports the case in a 6-shot 454 SRH. Ditto the 5-shot S&W 500 compared to the 6-shot 454 SRH. That's why the 500 has no problem with 60,000 psi loads.

Quote: [About my proposed shorter .50 revolver round] "That 450gr .500" bullet at 1500fps is impressive - but only ~5% greater in KE than the faster & lighter Hornady 240gr XTP [in the .454.]"

My load would be for those who prefer heavy bullets at "normal" magnum revolver velocities instead of light bullets at thunderbolt velocities. The gun could easily be built in .454 for those who prefer that caliber. Or in the short 500 you could shoot 350 Sierra JHPs at 1650, kind of splitting the difference.

Velocity declines with distance, the fast velocities more so, while caliber and bullet weight remain constant, as John Linebaugh points out. I tend to prefer larger-caliber, heavier slugs when given the choice in revolvers. That said, I have a semi-pointed cast 400 slug that goes 1950 out of a stock 500. That's a tremendous long range plinker.

They're all fun.

JR