I have been reloading for about six months. Started out witha 40 s&w in a baretta px4. All loads function very well. There only three incidents of failure to load. Recently Started loading for springfield 1911 gi. Loads were; 4.5gr of universal powder, 230gr casr round nose. Reloads WERE firing well.Experienced a couple of hot rouns. A good friend wanted shoot some of my reloasd in his 2 week old Kimber Custom. Big bang from his Kimber on about the tenth round. Powder marks on both hands. Small debris scratch on his face. Thank god for good eye andear protection!! Shell casing jamed in gun. Bullet did clear the barrel. After disassembly of the Kimber I removed the Shell casing. Ruptrued at the base. Blown out half way round. No damage to firearm. My friend is unharmed. What caused this. I'm loading on a Dillon Square Deal. CCI primers, COL 1.24. I am checking the first ten rounds at the start of a load session. With powder charge set @ 4.5gr my powder checking showed only two rounds with powder weight @ 4.4gr. Loading is very dependable. I continue check. every tenth round. My concern is with the crimp. What should the crimp measure be? I feel that the high pressure was caused byexcessive crimp. Is this possible? Have bee using mixed head stamp cassings. This incident was with PPU brass. always load with factory recommended starting chargs. What shell casings are most dependabled. And what casings should not be reloaded. Thanks in advance!
45acp reload disaster
- Thread starter patkeltx
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tango2echo
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The window with Universal (and alot of other powders) is small in the .45ACP. With the 230gr LRN minimum is 4.5grs and max is 5.4grs. That's only .9ths of a grain.
Sounds like a occasional overcharge. To have the type of damage you describe you would have been way over pressure.
I don't crimp very tight with the acp. Just enough to keep the bullets seated under recoil. I have never found a need for more. I doubt crimp was your problem though.
I stick to USA made brass (rem, fed, win, etc) in the acp.
I check the first ten rounds of every hundred, and I have never had a problem in tens of thousands of rounds.
Glad nobody was seriously hurt.
t2e
Sounds like a occasional overcharge. To have the type of damage you describe you would have been way over pressure.
I don't crimp very tight with the acp. Just enough to keep the bullets seated under recoil. I have never found a need for more. I doubt crimp was your problem though.
I stick to USA made brass (rem, fed, win, etc) in the acp.
I check the first ten rounds of every hundred, and I have never had a problem in tens of thousands of rounds.
Glad nobody was seriously hurt.
t2e
Bass Ackwardz
Member
This is a case where letting someone else shoot your reloads, especially a newer load, wouldnt happen for me. I am very hesitant to let others shoot my loads because of this very experience. Now if it was a good load that I had been using for months, and in several different makes and models of firearm, I might share some. Sounds like it was just an over charge, or weak brass. But not seeing it for myself, thats just speculation. Glad no one was injured, and the firearm was ok.
Bass
Bass
James2
Member
Hmmmm, I don't know. If the crimp was so severe that the brass did not head space properly and the brass actually went beyond the shoulder it is supposed to stop on, then as pressure built the brass could not expand to release the bullet. It seems this would take a severe over crimp, but would definitely cause high pressure if such was the case.
I just put enough taper crimp on 45 auto to remove the bell and press the casing up tight to the bullet. I do not try to push the brass into the bullet. Usually the very tip of the brass is only .002 to .003 less than the brass measures back a bit from the tip.
A bad casing may be your culprit too. Hard to say. I have had casings rupture before, but they have never stuck the casing in the gun. You get a loud report and gasses exiting the wrong end.
I have had overpressure rifle loads stick the casing in the gun such that you had to get a ramrod to push it out. Usually you also had to get a piece of wood to beat the bolt open.
How many of those rounds do you have left from that batch? I would consider pulling the bullets and weighing the powder. This may give you a clue.
I just put enough taper crimp on 45 auto to remove the bell and press the casing up tight to the bullet. I do not try to push the brass into the bullet. Usually the very tip of the brass is only .002 to .003 less than the brass measures back a bit from the tip.
A bad casing may be your culprit too. Hard to say. I have had casings rupture before, but they have never stuck the casing in the gun. You get a loud report and gasses exiting the wrong end.
I have had overpressure rifle loads stick the casing in the gun such that you had to get a ramrod to push it out. Usually you also had to get a piece of wood to beat the bolt open.
How many of those rounds do you have left from that batch? I would consider pulling the bullets and weighing the powder. This may give you a clue.
Bush Pilot
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It's almost impossible to double charge on a Square Deal. I'd look elsewhere for the answer.
jim m.
Member
In all the years I have been reloading 45ACP I have only had one case rupture. It was a weak case and I learned that cases wear out and different guns will support the back of the case differently. Some throats can be lacking in support of the case head. I never let anyone shoot my reloads. Good no one was hurt.
Sidewinder72
Member
I am thinking it must of been weak brass. I don't think crimp would do that.
twice barrel
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I'm shooting 4.8gr Universal with my 230gr LRN loads and its a nice, smooth load.
My suspicion is with the case.
TB
My suspicion is with the case.
TB
Thanks for the replies! I am suspect of the brass. I have been using mixed head stamps for indoor ranges. I always pickup my brass along with others if possible. I have now inspected all empty brass and will use only WIN, FED, R&P only. The brass that ruptured was PPU. Does anyone know if there is a valid list of do not use brass? I always throw out blazer and any other head stamp that is not common place! Thanks again!
RVenick
Member
I always pull the Amerc brass out it garbage.
The Bushmaster
Member
patkeltx....45 ACP is a low pressure round. Loaded with proper care and following the load manual to the letter, using a good scale and paying attention to what you are doing and this will not happen.
I load all .45 ACP brass except Amerc (even those that have been fired from Glocks) and have never had a case rupture (very few have split). I find it very difficult to believe the case was at fault. Go back and review your loading procedures and compare it with the manual. You DO have a reloading manual don't you?
The other "rule of thumb"...Never shoot other's reloads and never let others shoot yours in their guns. NEVER!!
I load all .45 ACP brass except Amerc (even those that have been fired from Glocks) and have never had a case rupture (very few have split). I find it very difficult to believe the case was at fault. Go back and review your loading procedures and compare it with the manual. You DO have a reloading manual don't you?
The other "rule of thumb"...Never shoot other's reloads and never let others shoot yours in their guns. NEVER!!
jfh
Member.
It could have been the case--but consider another hypothesis:
that, in fact, it was a double-charged case. The point is, it is only by examining alternative hypotheses that you can effectively eliminate extraneous reasons for the cause of this blowout. If it is a double-charged case, and if the round was loaded on a progressive, then the cause was likely OPERATOR ERROR.
I've not used a Square Deal--but I do use a progressive for churning out range fodder for any number of calibres, inclucing .45ACP. The Lee press I use has the same kind of process for charging cases that Dillon presses use. (In fact, Dillon licensed the process from Lee, I understand.) Generally speaking, a double-charged case can occur on some progressives when the press is "short-stroked"--i.e., the arm is operated just enough to lower the case(s) at the PTED but not lowered enough to index the shell plate--and then raised again.
This short stroke usually happens when the operator is interrupted and stops the press stroke with only a partial raising of the arm. He's stopped that stroke for a variety of reasons, most of which are 'distractions'--reaching for a bullet, moving a full bin (after hearing a round fall out because the bin is full), the phone ringing, the wife calling to him. After mentally attending to it, he returns to the incomplete stroke and lowers the arm (again)--and in do so double-charges the case.
If an operator even thinks he's done a short-stroke, the best response is immediately stop reloading, remove ALL cases and start up the sequence with a fresh case feed.
FWIW, the emerging hypothesis--that it was a bad case--is a reasonable one. I doubt the Kimber 1911 barrels have any real unsupported area at the feed ramp, and they generally have tight chambers. A double-charged or a squib load might rupture a barrel. With an overcharged case, look at the chamber area and forward; it's the opposite kind of damage that occurs with a shot following a squib load / obstructed barrel. (I assume you did examine your friend's Kimber closely for both barrel / chamber damage, not to mention the extractor, and so on. You guys did at least a field strip, right?)
Your hypothesis about excessive crimp is extremely unlikely; I know it sounds plausible to you, but you don't have the experience yet with reloading failure (not success) to gain a sense of the probability for results with different kinds of reloading errors.
Try reviewing your reloading procedures for setup, and attend to the way you concentrate on the process. Are you 'tracking' on the powder charging, or are you worried about primer insertion or reaching for a bullet? when working with a progressive, it's smart to get all the components in place for uninterrupted access--all the primers one needs, the full powder measure, the bullets near by, and so on. Identify the specific goal for this session--e.g., "I'm gonna build 500 new rounds", etc.--not "I'm just going to fill up (this pocket of) the range bag.
Finally, make sure you know your workflow for this package cold. It always helps to review it in the printed manuals again.
Jim H.
that, in fact, it was a double-charged case. The point is, it is only by examining alternative hypotheses that you can effectively eliminate extraneous reasons for the cause of this blowout. If it is a double-charged case, and if the round was loaded on a progressive, then the cause was likely OPERATOR ERROR.
I've not used a Square Deal--but I do use a progressive for churning out range fodder for any number of calibres, inclucing .45ACP. The Lee press I use has the same kind of process for charging cases that Dillon presses use. (In fact, Dillon licensed the process from Lee, I understand.) Generally speaking, a double-charged case can occur on some progressives when the press is "short-stroked"--i.e., the arm is operated just enough to lower the case(s) at the PTED but not lowered enough to index the shell plate--and then raised again.
This short stroke usually happens when the operator is interrupted and stops the press stroke with only a partial raising of the arm. He's stopped that stroke for a variety of reasons, most of which are 'distractions'--reaching for a bullet, moving a full bin (after hearing a round fall out because the bin is full), the phone ringing, the wife calling to him. After mentally attending to it, he returns to the incomplete stroke and lowers the arm (again)--and in do so double-charges the case.
If an operator even thinks he's done a short-stroke, the best response is immediately stop reloading, remove ALL cases and start up the sequence with a fresh case feed.
FWIW, the emerging hypothesis--that it was a bad case--is a reasonable one. I doubt the Kimber 1911 barrels have any real unsupported area at the feed ramp, and they generally have tight chambers. A double-charged or a squib load might rupture a barrel. With an overcharged case, look at the chamber area and forward; it's the opposite kind of damage that occurs with a shot following a squib load / obstructed barrel. (I assume you did examine your friend's Kimber closely for both barrel / chamber damage, not to mention the extractor, and so on. You guys did at least a field strip, right?)
Your hypothesis about excessive crimp is extremely unlikely; I know it sounds plausible to you, but you don't have the experience yet with reloading failure (not success) to gain a sense of the probability for results with different kinds of reloading errors.
Try reviewing your reloading procedures for setup, and attend to the way you concentrate on the process. Are you 'tracking' on the powder charging, or are you worried about primer insertion or reaching for a bullet? when working with a progressive, it's smart to get all the components in place for uninterrupted access--all the primers one needs, the full powder measure, the bullets near by, and so on. Identify the specific goal for this session--e.g., "I'm gonna build 500 new rounds", etc.--not "I'm just going to fill up (this pocket of) the range bag.
Finally, make sure you know your workflow for this package cold. It always helps to review it in the printed manuals again.
Jim H.
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Well, that right there is what we call a Clue.
Time to stop shooting when the first hot round came along.
(until you get to the bottom of the cause.)
I would think of a couple or three things could have caused a series of two hot rounds followed by an explosion.
1. Powder bridging in your powder measure drop tube resulted in an over-charge or double-charge occasionally.
2. Very excess crimp allowing the case to get wedged into the chamber leade and not releasing the bullet.
First thing I would do is measure the crimps with a dial caliper.
The case mouth of the loaded rounds should measure no less then .468", to no more then .473".
Between .469" - .471" is ideal.
All you want a taper crimp to do is straighten out the case mouth bell. It has little bearing on holding the bullet in place in the case..
Proper case neck tension does most of that.
3. Loose neck tension allowed the bullets to push back in the case when hitting the feed ramp. Suggest you try pushing the rounds against the edge of your reloading bench as hard as you possibly can without hurting your hand.
If the bullets move even the slightest, that may be your problem.
I don't feel you can blame it on a defective case, because you said yourself you had shot two hot rounds before the third one blew up.
rc
jfh
Member.
once again, rcmodel steps up with the clearest thinking...
I overlooked the comment about two hot rounds...and that is where the clues arise. "Something" was going on to vary the charges going in to those cases. Powder bridging is a likely cause.
How full was the measure?
Do you have humidity problems that can cause clumping, particularly if the powder is kept in the measure?
and, then, at the incident--those two 'hot' rounds were the indicator to stop shooting and find out why they were not like the typical ones. Ammo produced like this should be very consistent; you should NOT sense a difference between rounds.
I want to compliment you, patkeltx, for stepping up and posting this incident. forum critiques can be tough on the ego--but well worth it if you learn something new to help you.
Jim H.
I overlooked the comment about two hot rounds...and that is where the clues arise. "Something" was going on to vary the charges going in to those cases. Powder bridging is a likely cause.
How full was the measure?
Do you have humidity problems that can cause clumping, particularly if the powder is kept in the measure?
and, then, at the incident--those two 'hot' rounds were the indicator to stop shooting and find out why they were not like the typical ones. Ammo produced like this should be very consistent; you should NOT sense a difference between rounds.
I want to compliment you, patkeltx, for stepping up and posting this incident. forum critiques can be tough on the ego--but well worth it if you learn something new to help you.
Jim H.
Last edited:
RainDodger
Member
You have said some very troubling things:
"There only three incidents of failure to load."
"Experienced a couple of hot rouns."
"Ruptrued at the base. Blown out half way round."
I applaud you for immediately trying to sort out your problems by asking some experienced people... however.... stop your present method of reloading, until you know what the problem is!
This is why I ALWAYS recommend that new handloaders use a single stage press until they're so familiar with loading they could do it in their sleep. "Only 3 instances of failure to load".... you should never have a failure to load (unless you have a malfunctioning pistol). Don't let yourself get complacent enough to feel ok because you only have 3 failures! You should have NO failures due to your handloads!
I am not trying to sound like I know what I'm doing (none of us should be over-confident), but in 40+ years, I have never had a handloaded round fail or exhibit anything unexpected. Once you figure out what happened, take steps to ensure that it cannot happen again. You should develop one process, that includes your "scan" - your visual checks of critical operations - every time you cycle that press. It's critical that you do the same thing every time, so that you don't overlook anything. Just like they drilled into us in military flight training - your scan is key. That's what keeps you safe.
With my Square Deal, I'm able to see every powder charge as it goes from station 2 to station 3 - even just the top of it. I can verify that the charge size is about where the previous one was, even if I can't see all the way to the bottom of the case.
I don't mean to sound pedantic, but I keep seeing these posts where people are satisfied because "most" of their handloads work ok. They should all work! They should all be safe loads! Even if you don't carry them for self defense for whatever reason, you should feel 100% confident if you do have to use them for SD!
To me, handloading is as much a hobby as the shooting part and I take a lot of pride in it. I can't emphasize enough, to get your process ironed out, don't vary from it, and with a little luck thrown in, you'll never have a glitch. Have fun with it. and like Jim says above, keep asking questions and read, read, read!
Sorry if I talked to much....
"There only three incidents of failure to load."
"Experienced a couple of hot rouns."
"Ruptrued at the base. Blown out half way round."
I applaud you for immediately trying to sort out your problems by asking some experienced people... however.... stop your present method of reloading, until you know what the problem is!
This is why I ALWAYS recommend that new handloaders use a single stage press until they're so familiar with loading they could do it in their sleep. "Only 3 instances of failure to load".... you should never have a failure to load (unless you have a malfunctioning pistol). Don't let yourself get complacent enough to feel ok because you only have 3 failures! You should have NO failures due to your handloads!
I am not trying to sound like I know what I'm doing (none of us should be over-confident), but in 40+ years, I have never had a handloaded round fail or exhibit anything unexpected. Once you figure out what happened, take steps to ensure that it cannot happen again. You should develop one process, that includes your "scan" - your visual checks of critical operations - every time you cycle that press. It's critical that you do the same thing every time, so that you don't overlook anything. Just like they drilled into us in military flight training - your scan is key. That's what keeps you safe.
With my Square Deal, I'm able to see every powder charge as it goes from station 2 to station 3 - even just the top of it. I can verify that the charge size is about where the previous one was, even if I can't see all the way to the bottom of the case.
I don't mean to sound pedantic, but I keep seeing these posts where people are satisfied because "most" of their handloads work ok. They should all work! They should all be safe loads! Even if you don't carry them for self defense for whatever reason, you should feel 100% confident if you do have to use them for SD!
To me, handloading is as much a hobby as the shooting part and I take a lot of pride in it. I can't emphasize enough, to get your process ironed out, don't vary from it, and with a little luck thrown in, you'll never have a glitch. Have fun with it. and like Jim says above, keep asking questions and read, read, read!
Sorry if I talked to much....
twice barrel
Member
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- Oct 21, 2009
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These are good points I failed to pickup. I use a Lee Classic Turret press. While not a progressive I do use the auto-index function partially because it will automatically advance the case away from the charge station AS LONG as I do a full stroke. Also, I deliberately position myself so I can view down into the case and see the powder level before I place the bullet in the case mouth.
Like you I use mixed headstamps a number of which I'm unfamiliar with. Sometimes the powder level visually seems a bit different but so far when I've checked these on the scale the charges were the same. I attribute this to slight variances in base/web dimensions and perhaps case thickness variances. So far they've all fed & shot fine with nice tight groups.
You'd also have to really cycle the Lee Auto-disc a lot to achieve a double charge as the cylinder has to move a good distance to refill and then dump down the drop tube.
One of the reasons I like Universal is it feeds so well in this dispenser. But any flake shotgun powder can bridge if too large a charge is dispensed relative to the size of the drop tube. Even a spherical powder can do it although much less likely.
Early in my reloading days I've witnessed it in shotshell reloaders with Hercules Greendot and heavy duck hunting loads. Fortunately the clear drop tubes made it easy to detect. But the first clue was noticing that the charge was light and seeing that the level of powder in the case low. We learned to watch the "drop".
A good routine and no TV, radio, or other distractions permits me the opportunity to concentrate on what I'm doing. If I grow weary of the loading I knockoff, establish that nothing is in-process and go do something else for a while.
Hope to avoid an incident just like you've had because it certainly can happen to any of us.
Regards,
TB
Like you I use mixed headstamps a number of which I'm unfamiliar with. Sometimes the powder level visually seems a bit different but so far when I've checked these on the scale the charges were the same. I attribute this to slight variances in base/web dimensions and perhaps case thickness variances. So far they've all fed & shot fine with nice tight groups.
You'd also have to really cycle the Lee Auto-disc a lot to achieve a double charge as the cylinder has to move a good distance to refill and then dump down the drop tube.
One of the reasons I like Universal is it feeds so well in this dispenser. But any flake shotgun powder can bridge if too large a charge is dispensed relative to the size of the drop tube. Even a spherical powder can do it although much less likely.
Early in my reloading days I've witnessed it in shotshell reloaders with Hercules Greendot and heavy duck hunting loads. Fortunately the clear drop tubes made it easy to detect. But the first clue was noticing that the charge was light and seeing that the level of powder in the case low. We learned to watch the "drop".
A good routine and no TV, radio, or other distractions permits me the opportunity to concentrate on what I'm doing. If I grow weary of the loading I knockoff, establish that nothing is in-process and go do something else for a while.
Hope to avoid an incident just like you've had because it certainly can happen to any of us.
Regards,
TB
Some excellent advise here.
One thing I did not see, although I may have missed it, is to see every single charge you seat a bullet over. That will easily stop any rounds being loaded with no charge, and should stop any being double charged. Learn to recognise what the proper charge looks like in the case.
One thing I did not see, although I may have missed it, is to see every single charge you seat a bullet over. That will easily stop any rounds being loaded with no charge, and should stop any being double charged. Learn to recognise what the proper charge looks like in the case.
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