.45AutoRim: The Great Survivor

[Deaf Smith]

Jim,

Not really but I know what you are getting at. Meaning the SAAMI spec is 15k CUP which is different than PSI. In my research you find in cartridge loading books from the historians or experts that the reason the SAAMI pressure spec is lower is due to originally how Peters loaded the cartridge with a soft lead bullet.

Some of the reloading books adhere and some of them give caution. For example Speer specifically calls out the SAMMI spec for AutoRim is 15KCUP but state all of their 45AR loads are within 45Auto pressure of 21kPSI.

It is safe to use 45 Auto factory ammo / SAAMI spec in today's revolvers. I would not use +P or +P+, if I need that kind of power I just always go up to the next caliber anyway. Chose the right pistol and ammunition for the job.

Respectfully,
Mr.Revolverguy

Well happily my 625 eats .45 Supers all the time and Jimmy Clark, of Clark's Custom Guns, rechambers them to .460 Rowland.

Thus using .45 AR brass, which is very THICK, is no biggie in a 625. And it lets me load good strong medicine that won't inadvertently be stuffed into a 1911 .45.

1917? No... old pre-war S&W 25? No.

But the 625... oh yea.

Deaf

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

1/2 moon, full moon, whatever - I like 'em.

But Auto-Rim, they're just too cool for 1911 school!

Look cool, are particular about the firearm company that they keep and make a distinct sound when (if) they hit the cement after ejecting.

My preferences for use though, run along lanyard loop lines: Enfield, Smith & Wesson and Colt.

ApacheCoTodd

Wow nice collection. Very nice.

I have to tell you -- I have to steal this line from ya
But Auto-Rim, they're just too cool for 1911 school!

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

WOW honestly I did not think we had so many that were as fond of the 45AutoRim.

 

[CraigC]

Only downside to the .45AR is trying to explain to people that one cylinder can't fire .45ACP, .45Colt, .45S&W and .45AR.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

ApacheCoTodd

Wow nice collection. Very nice.

I have to tell you -- I have to steal this line from ya
But Auto-Rim, they're just too cool for 1911 school!

Thanks, I dig 'em hugely. Loaded well, they remind me of my .44 Remington 1858 as far as recoil. They're heavy hog-legs pushing a big pill with not-a-lot of powder.

I spent over 200 bucks on swinging iron targets at the last gun show - mostly - for these whompers.

 

[jell-dog]

Question:
Where do you find 45AR brass?
Thanks,
jell-dog

 

[rcmodel]

It seems not to have run out quite as fast as mainstream caliber brass.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/17849

http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/catid/5/pid/26046/Starline_Brass__45_Auto_Rim

Rc

 

[Nom de Forum]

Since 1980 I have shot about a bazillion rounds of .45AR I reloaded for use in various Webleys. When I first started reloading them I bought every box of .45AR I would find sitting on a Gun Show table for $10. One day I came across I guy who had about 200 once fired cases and I was about set for life. I still have hundreds of cases, including a few balloon heads from before WWII.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

It seems not to have run out quite as fast as mainstream caliber brass.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/17849

http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/catid/5/pid/26046/Starline_Brass__45_Auto_Rim

Rc

You know RC I had not thought of that because of my stash of 45AutoRim brass already. It is a good reason to shoot it more huh. Brass is easy to find and not easily lost on the range.

Makes me ask with all the fun that can be had with them in the many different pistols is this the caliber to have during the ammo shortage we have been seeing?

I will have to include that in the bottom of my article, I hope you don't mind.

 

[jell-dog]

It seems not to have run out quite as fast as mainstream caliber brass.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/17849

http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/catid/5/pid/26046/Starline_Brass__45_Auto_Rim

Rc

RC,
Thank you for the links
Interesting, purchasing directly from Starline ($180/1k) is $30 cheeper than from Grafs ($207/1K) or Dillion Precision ($209/1K), which are selling Starline brand 45AR brass
I have been looking at the THR list of "once fired brass" sources, none found (so far).
However, Starline is good brass and I would recover 100%, so only "lost" brass would be split or other defects.
Could probably go many years on 1K new brass. Or even 500 pieces
jell-dog

 

[rcmodel]

I will have to include that in the bottom of my article, I hope you don't mind.

No, I don't mind at all.

Maybe might want to call and confirm availability.
It doesn't say OOS, or back-ordered.

But you never know anymore until you try to order it!

rc

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

I know starline has them available, just ordered a few new ones.

 

[StrawHat]

As much as I like the 45 AR, I still have several hundred full moon clips and use them as well. When the 1911 could not be produced fast enough, the S&W company developed a couple of solutions, one was a half moon clip to hold three rounds of ACP and the other was a full moon clip that could hold all six. It was not like current full moon clips and had a couple of springs and such to hold the rounds, definitely not combat proof. The half moon clip also allowed the ACP round to be used in the Colt 1917 which did not have the headspace step in the cylinder so rounds could go in to far for the firing pin to reach them.

My brother just got a S&W M22-4, I will have to load up some AR for him.

 

[Blacksmoke]

Back in the early 1970s I carried ARs lead round nose in a 1917 S&W. The ammo was commonly available. It seems to me it became scarce in the 1980s and 1990s. So, I am glad to know it is in production once again.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A nit pick:

it also is very important in providing the proper headspace to ensure reliability.

While the early Colt M1917s did not have a .45 ACP chamber and needed the half-moon clips, later Colts and all S&Ws had proper .45 ACP chambers, which headspace on the case mouth. You can fire .45 ACP cartridges in most M1917s and they will work just fine -- but not eject.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Vern it is ok to nit pick

I too have heard the exact same thing and know that it can be done, the key word is can it be done reliably? In each of these nice revolvers I had on loan I tried 45ACP without the moon clips and in each I had 1 or 2 misfires. So can it be done sure it can but I would only do it when I am enjoying a day with the family at the range full well knowing I should expect some failures and not to get frustrated from it.

 

[rcmodel]

IMO: It could be, and was done very reliably in the 1917, and all later Model 25 S&W's at least.

Only on the later MIM guns has S&W deep chambered them to the point they are no longer reliable without clips or AR rimmed ammo.
Perhaps the frame mounted FP is the culprit?

But why they could headspace them correctly and make them 100% reliable without clips for 80 years, and now can't?

I have no idea!

I have owned numerous 1917's & Model 25's that would run 100% all day without clips.
My 625-6 Mountain gun is mis-fire city without clips.

rc

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

I can see your point totally RC, though I did have few misfires from the S&W Model 25.

With moonclips and the 45AutoRim brass no issues.

Very good and valid point on MIM though. Though I wish S&W would answer your question on getting the headspace right

 

[rcmodel]

Brian Pearce in Handloader Magazine was pressuring S&W big time to make them reliable again back when it started.

As I recall, he provided chamber measurements of older guns against several newer guns, and they were for sure chambered too deeply to headspace correctly without clips.

He never did get a satisfactory answer from S&W as to why they didn't do it the same way they always had.

rc

 

[Jim K]

.45 AR cases can be used in "unshaved" Webleys by trimming the front end of the rim; that way you can have good solid, reloadable brass for the old timers with rims large enough for proper extraction. Some guns might also require cases to be trimmed at the front; stick to .455 Webley pressures, of course.

Jim

 

[Catshooter]

Peters did indeed develop the AR, and a poor job of it they did. At least with the bullet. I remember growing up reading of it's reputation for leading badly.

Curious, and recalling the bad rep, I thought to check. I happen to have an old partial box of the old Auto Rim, so I pulled one of the bullets.

It was .448 OD! And of course very soft lead, probably pure. No wonder it leaded badly.

I only shoot the AR in my American Derringer anymore. It's a great round.


Cat

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Catshooter,

That is sweet, take a picture of the old rounds.

You are right on the soft lead which is one of the main reasons the 45AR pressure was loaded to less than 45ACP pressure.

 

[rcmodel]

They were also made soft enough to slug up and fit just about any war-time chamber throat or bore size and still hold pressure down.

Different times people!
They weren't expected to be all day match accurate.
People didn't and couldn't afford to do that back then.

They were designed to shoot a robber off your cash register, or kill a sick cow with the gun you brought home from The War to End all Wars.

And they did that just peachy keen!

You see, There really was some thought given to it!

rc

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Different times people!
They weren't expected to be all day match accurate.
People didn't and couldn't afford to do that back then.

They were designed to shoot a robber off your cash register, or kill a sick cow with the gun you brought home from The War to End all Wars.

You see, There really was some thought given to it!

rc

RC, I am so diggin' that summation. Clear, clever, supported and with just the right amount of humor as to be biting yet not offend. Bravo.

Were it not for the collector money that the firearms now command, the entire statement would still hold true today. Were the firearms still inexpensive and given a Lee loader and bullet mold - these would still be "The Pooh"! Talk about yer; SHTF, EOTW... whatever, combo. Wheel weights, powder and primers - you're on your way.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

IMO: It could be, and was done very reliably in the 1917, and all later Model 25 S&W's at least.

I shot .45 ACP without half-moon clips for years in my Colt M1917 with no problems at all. Usually, I could simply swing the cylinder out, point the gun up, and the cases would fall out. When I did have to help one, all it took was a gentle push with a pencil or a stick.