5/3 Bank No Carry Zone

[effengee]

I don't intend to stop a robbery...

I carry because I can. PERIOD.
If a potential criminal is "scoping" out the place, he's gonna see the buldge under my shirt and may just think twice before starting any crap...
If not, then I'm gonna be the most likely first target and not Suzy Homemaker behind the counter...

If Mr. Bad Guy is too nervous to draw, you can bet it was worth it...

Faced with the prospect of being fired upon is not my first choice for negotiation, nor do I go around aching to "Deathwish" some criminal puke.

If carrying does any harm, it is to the criminal mindset that preys upon the weak and timid...Predators usually go after the old, the young, and the sickly... It's easier pickings...
I know alot of women who carry. Granted, it may never stop an actual crime, but with it in their purse, they walk a little tougher, and step with a little more confidence. Just that is sometimes enough to stop the common "thug". I hate to think what would really happen if somebody was robbing the store where I was getting a gallon of milk for my kids...
But I would find it my moral obligation and my duty to my fellow man to attempt to divert his firearm towards a more level battlefield...
If he decides to escalate to the next level, then I would have to respond and go all the way, even to my grave, to uphold my firm belief that if I am to carry an arm for my defense, then it is in the best interests of everyone that I carry it in their defense as well...

I humbly step off the proverbial soapbox...

Jimbo

 

[JerryM]

Jimbo,

[ I hate to think what would really happen if somebody was robbing the store where I was getting a gallon of milk for my kids...
But I would find it my moral obligation and my duty to my fellow man to attempt to divert his firearm towards a more level battlefield...
If he decides to escalate to the next level, then I would have to respond and go all the way, even to my grave, to uphold my firm belief that if I am to carry an arm for my defense, then it is in the best interests of everyone that I carry it in their defense as well...]

Are you saying that if you were in a convenience store or a bank and someone came in and said that he was going to rob the place, that you would draw and start shooting if he did not give up?

What are you really saying?
Just curious.

Jerry

 

[ExtremeDooty]

How many times have we seen on the convenience store camera where the cashier cooperates and then gets shot anyway. If you are there with a gun and do nothing people will ask "why didn't you help that poor cashier?"

It's a tough decision to have to make quickly and under pressure. And no matter what you do someone is likely to say you did the wrong thing. Hopefully if I decide to get involved, the security camera and the cashier will back me up.

 

[effengee]

Jerrym...

Yes, if I was in a store, and the situation presented itself, I would draw and ask them to stop robbing the place.
That gives the clerk enough time to sound the alarm or call 911
Of course, finding a good defensive position/posture while drawing goes without saying...
I'm not gonna just whip it out and spew some Hollywood movie line...

If the shooting starts, then in my state, deadly force is approved.

Again, I'd hate for it to happen, but I'd have to do something...
I know the local clerks by first name, not because it's on their tag, but because most of these people I've known my whole life.
It's not about being a hero, it's simply about people that I care deeply for.
I know more than a few people who carry at work...
I know any one of them would rather die fighting than to be executed.

"If we don't hang together, then we will surely hang separately."

 

[JerryM]

Thanks for the reply.
Jerry

 

[effengee]

You are welcome...

As I said, I'm no hero, but I'd hate to see one of my best friends splattered all over the cigarette display while I cowered behind the donuts...
If I have a handgun and don't or won't use it to defend my life and the lives of those I love, then do I really need one?
That's purely a rhetorical question, OF COURSE I still need it!
A police officer will try to take you into custody...
If you are breaking into my house at 3 am, I'm not reaching for a phone and you ain't leaving on your feet...
Sorry, but that's the way it is...

Besides, this is Vermont. The "hardcore" criminals all know that we don't dial 911 we call .357

" I do not love the sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend"
J.R.R.Tolkien

 

[ExtremeDooty]

How many times have we seen on the convenience store camera where the cashier cooperates and then gets shot anyway. If you are there with a gun and do nothing people will ask "why didn't you help that poor cashier?"

It's a tough decision to have to make quickly and under pressure. And no matter what you do someone is likely to say you did the wrong thing. Hopefully if I decide to get involved, the security camera and the cashier will back me up.

 

[JerryM]

Although I have not kept tabs, I think many more none-violent robberies are recorded than violent.

If you were there with your wife and kids, would you draw and command to stop?
Would you draw and shoot, and often there are two or even three thugs?

If there was a history in the town of robberies without shooting or violence, then I would be very inclined to try to stay out of the way and let it go.

But if the history was of the thugs shooting the clerks and/or bystanders then that is a different story. But again, realize that there are usually two or more robbers, and if they are both armed it is almost sure that there will be shots scattered and who knows who will get shot.

Jerry

 

[sendec]

Nobody's quite as dangerous as a hero.....

Unless there is a dire iminent threat, please, let the police handle it. They'll wait 'til the knuckleheads are outside and then take'em down. For all you know there could be a couple SWATters in the backroom trying to communicate to you by telepathy to get out of my line of fire. Typically the goal in managing a robbery is to pop the guys outside, maybe even letting them drive to a "safer" area- ie one where stray rounds will not do a lot of damage. We want to avoid at all cost the perps holding hostages inside the store. Also, to reinforce a comment I made earlier, it is not unusual for the "good" bad guys, the smart ones who know what they are doing, to have another BG impersonate a customer, so to speak. This is the one who'll shoot you in the back as you are trying to outshoot the other guys in front of you.

Another thing to think about- suppose they start searching the customers? Uh oh, you've got a decision to make. In the Princess Gate incident the Constable who was being held hostage was armed with a concealed gun. The terrs never found it, mainly 'cause he never went to the restroom where it would have been discovered. But if they had.......

 

[Skirmisher]

The FifthThird is not posted in MI so it is legal to carry concealed. The Ohioians are going through the "first year jitters" concerning their very new CCW laws. Many stores and banks in Ohio are posting but not in other branches in other states that have CCW. Since you are limited to banks by location, I wouldn't worry about carrying concealed in MI or IN as a matter of fact. Son lives in IN and banks at FifthThird, always armed.

 

[Barbara]

I don't understand that, though. If they don't welcome gun owners, why support them? SAFR has an account there, until Friday.

 

[dav]

If they don't welcome gun owners, why support them?

I've got to agree with you, Barbara. It isn't about 'can you get away with it', it is about 'should you have to break the law to do what you need to do'?

We can't know the inclinations of every business or business owner, but if they are going so far out of their way as to post that I am not welcome, then I believe them. If I'm not welcome, I try not to go there.

I don't want to get personal, but at least one here has no reason to carry a gun. If you won't ever use it, it simply puts you in more danger.

Whether bad guys usually shoot or not is a silly question. If they start shooting at me, I want to be able to respond. No heroism. Life on the line, defend yourself, or quit carrying.

 

[JerryM]

dav,
[I don't want to get personal, but at least one here has no reason to carry a gun. If you won't ever use it, it simply puts you in more danger.

Whether bad guys usually shoot or not is a silly question. If they start shooting at me, I want to be able to respond. No heroism. Life on the line, defend yourself, or quit carrying.]

I wonder how you have reached that conclusion about any poster here? A CHL is an enormous responsibility. It is not a license to try to find situations where you can prove something.

It is a stretch to say that one should not be wise and consider whether the situation is such that one should shoot, and to say that if they shoot...

Sure you want to be able to respond, and no one here has said otherwise. The point that some have made is that we are not LEOs. We do not have the responsibility or authority of an LEO.
For example, I have no responsibility to attempt to stop a robbery in Wendy's. To attempt to do so, and with other people there is to unnecessarily endanger everyone there. Would you want someone in there to start shooting and 2 BG begin to shoot when your children were in there? I would hope not. But I fear that is what you may be thinking you would do.

Defending yourself is not being a hero or trying to be a cop. Under normal circumstances it is much better for the cops to handle it than to try to do it yourself. Note I said "normal circumstances."
In fact as has been said, it is probable that even a cop would not start anything inside unless violence seemed imminent in his judgment.

If you ever are in a store and it is being robbed with no great evidence that there is about to be violence, and if you start shooting, and if someone gets hurt, you will rue the day. Lawyer fees will break you and you will likely go to prison. The survivors of those killed will have NO sympathy for the fact that you were trying to prevent some amount of money from being stolen.

Now having said all that, l would not do business with a bank that prohibited concealed carry if I had a choice. I would not try to stop a robbery if I were in there, but if violence started I would do whatever I could at the time. It would not be to save the bank's money.

Jerry

 

[deanf]

I don't do business with organizations that believe they're entitled to prevent me from exercising my civil rights.

Well you must not do a lot of business then.

The fact is they are entitled to prevent you from exercising your constitutional rights. The Bill of Rights only restricts government, not private parties.

If carrying a gun was a "civil" right, then it would be a different story.

 

[Barbara]

Can a bank refuse to wait on me because I'm a woman or someone else because they're black?

I do agree they have the right not to allow concealed carry. I also have the right not to bank at their institution. I'd go so far as to say I have an obligation not to bank there.

 

[Model520Fan]

JerryM wrote very well. For public places, I don't think I would add to that. Regarding home, please remember that 911 is a long-distance number; if you need help, use 1911.

 

[effengee]

911 response time...

I've heard this from a comedian, but I don't remember which one...
"Dial 911 and Dominoes at the same time. You'll be eating pizza before the cops show up"
I know that the police do everything they can to protect us from crime, but with ratios in some cities like 1 cop to every 5,000 people we all know that to say "spread thin" is seriously short of the mark...
Here in Vermont:
I don't need a special permit to carry my handgun concealed.
I don't need a special permit to carry my hundgun un-concealed.
I've carried un-concealed while shopping/banking and have had the police called on me, people freaking out, and even once (jokingly of course) challenged to "Slap leather and draw, pardner" from a fellow gunner...
Carrying concealed, with no intention of commiting a crime, is perfectly legal. Not only that, ALL of the police, from town constables to State Troopers, will tell you to keep it concealed in Vermont.
As one Trooper once put it:
"We'd prefer you conceal it. Otherwise it scares the hell out of the tourists."

As a police officer in uniform, people see a handgun and think nothing of it...
As a John Q. Public, in a T-shirt and denim shorts, the exact same handgun becomes a Weapon Of Mass Destruction that causes the owner to become a vicious killer who would shoot women and children at the drop of a hat...

Stereotypes about firearms are the most un-informed, un-educated, and even outright ignorant, of all the prejudices...

I love to hear this bit of rhetoric about guns:

"There's no need for assault weapons and handguns, only the police and military need those kinds of guns"

Whenever I hear that I say:

"Really? Because that kind of thinking is exactly how genocides occur"

"Well, we don't need to worry about that. Not here."

Which is when I reply:

"That's what they thought over there."

This conversation has played itself out quite a few times.
Maybe not verbatim, but relatively close.

As Larry "git-r-done" the cable guy once said;
"Saying that guns cause crime is like saying pencils cause illiteracy."

jim

 

[deanf]

Can a bank refuse to wait on me because I'm a woman or someone else because they're black?

No. They should be able to, but that's a different argument. The right to service at the bank even if you're a woman or black or whatever, is a civil right. As I understand it, a civil right is a right that is codified by the legislature. It's protections may apply to private matters (the bank), public matters (the government), or both.

A constitutional right is listed there in The Constitution, or is implied by it (as in Article X of the Bill of Rights). Of course the Constitution only restrains the powers of government. It has nothing to do with private matters.

 

[V-fib]

I wasn’t happy when 5/3’rd took over Ameribank a few years ago and I haven’t found a replacement bank yet. Hart’s tellers are very nice. Fremont's tellers are a bunch of (rhymes with riches). However I’ve never seen any signs in the 5/3 banks I have gone to and even if I did I’d ignore them.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I do agree they have the right not to allow concealed carry.

I still don't understand how they're gonna enforce that. Concealed is concealed. An uneforceable rule is no rule at all. What if they made a rule that all customers must wear green underwear?

 

[Barbara]

Account closed.