5.56 Wall penetration.

[Cousin]

I would like to continue the 5.56 verses pistol caliber wall penetration debate. From the links ugaarguy sent me, ( thanks much ) of tests conducted between 5.56 and 9mm, this is what I noticed.

Pistol ammo went through all three courses of sheet rock wall. It pretty much stayed its course through without to much deviation. I couldn't gather the speed it had exiting the third wall, but I imagine it was moving pretty slow by then. If the house wasn't brick or stone encased ( most are foam and vinyl ) the round might roll to a stop on the lawn.

5.56 frangible or varmint rounds did the best at two wall sections. 5.56 ball or soft point went through all three walls if it was stable enough to hit the third wall. Most times it yawed one way or another and missed number three.

7.62x39 went straight through and over to the neighbor's, so we won't have to discuss much about that.

So here's my question, which is safer a small chunk or two of fast moving unstable bullet going who knows were, or a slow stable bullet following the path you sent it on?

The reason I'm not debating the frangible ammo is because of all the surplus ammo being used out there and the fact that most folks are likely to have deer hunting ammo or surplus on hand. I myself have a match grade heavy barrel AR for Coyotes with frangible rounds, but I won't grab it for home defense. I like a shotgun for that. Although its one of the worst for wall penetration.

I may have to rethink that. Thoughts?

 

[jmr40]

I have mutiple AR's set up for different purposes with quite a few magazines preloaded. Mostly with 55 gr FMJ for plinking at the range. In don't waste time reloading at the range. I do it after I get home.

I also have a couple of mags with 60 gr hunting ammo for those rare times I might use my AR for deer, and some 55gr SP ammo for SD purposes if ever needed.

I have the 870 set up with buckshot, but consider it more for special purposes. I'd reach for a handgun 1st, the AR 2nd if I heard an intruder coming into my home.

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

this needs to be discussed again

 

[mljdeckard]

I really think that trying to state definitively whether stray fragments or straight-path bullets are a better unintended consequence is so situation dependant as to be unanswerable.

 

[dvdcrr]

Frangible bullets are different from fragmenting bullets just to be clear

 

[Warp]

I believe the 5.56/.223 round is less of a risk than the pistol round.

It also just so happens that the 5.56/.223 is far more likely to immediately stop the attack, which means it is more likely to require fewer shots and, thus, has fewer chances of missed shots...and the missed shots are what we are really concerned with here.

 

[Cousin]

I really think that trying to state definitively whether stray fragments or straight-path bullets are a better unintended consequence is so situation dependant as to be unanswerable

My thoughts are if I could send the bullet in a safe direction, ( although I doubt there's going to be time for that ) like through a empty kitchen or out toward the garage, it would be somewhat better than going though two walls and then maybe down the hall or through occupied bedrooms.

I always thought 12 gauge 00 would be a little safer than a rifle or pistol, I was way wrong about that. Close up its just a big wad of lead and its going through some walls.

 

[Warp]

My thoughts are if I could send the bullet in a safe direction, ( although I doubt there's going to be time for that ) like through a empty kitchen or out toward the garage, it would be somewhat better than going though two walls and then maybe down the hall or through occupied bedrooms.

I always thought 12 gauge 00 would be a little safer than a rifle or pistol, I was way wrong about that. Close up its just a big wad of lead and its going through some walls.

I'm fairly certain that where the attacker(s) is/are will determine the direction you fire, and none of the rounds fired, will be fired with the assumption that they will miss (or else you probably shouldn't be firing them).

The fact is that, given the construction of most interior walls in the US at this time, if it penetrates an attacker enough to be relied upon to stop the attacker, a miss is going to penetrate an interior wall (or 2 or 3) and pose a risk to anything and anybody on the other side.

But a 5.56/.223 is at a great intersection of effectiveness vs penetration risk.

A handgun or a shotgun may be a good choice too, and may be the best choice for somebody, it all depends.

 

[Cousin]

It also just so happens that the 5.56/.223 is far more likely to immediately stop the attack, which means it is more likely to require fewer shots and, thus, has fewer chances of missed shots...and the missed shots are what we are really concerned with here.

I can see your point there, under stress I would also be more likely to hit with a shoulder fired weapon. I guess that's why I prefer the shotgun over the pistol. Buckshot seemed to do some yawing after a couple walls also.

 

[Warp]

I can see your point there, under stress I would also be more likely to hit with a shoulder fired weapon. I guess that's why I prefer the shotgun over the pistol. Buckshot seemed to do some yawing after a couple walls also.

When I lived in an apartment...and didn't have nearly as much money to spend on firearms...my HD choice was a 12 gauge loaded with 2 3/4" magnum 34 pellet #4 buck (magnum had lower velocity than the 27 pellet standard load)

I still have a shotgun around, but the AR is considered HD gun #1

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think Warp stated the case well. If you miss, small fragments will bleed off momentum and lethal potential faster than a solid, slow moving pistol bullet. So while they might take a wayward direction, they would also be less likely to penetrate deep enough to be lethal.

 

[C-grunt]

Just remember with ball .223/5.56 ammo they don't always yaw and fragment. Ive seen M855 and M193 give some really impressive penetration.

 

[gotigers]

Just remember with ball .223/5.56 ammo they don't always yaw and fragment. Ive seen M855 and M193 give some really impressive penetration.

This... M193 was designed for a 1:12 twist barrel. Yaw out of a 1:7 or 1:9 is hit or miss.

I will be testing wall penetration with my SBR soon. I will be testing heavy OTMs only.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

This... M193 was designed for a 1:12 twist barrel. Yaw out of a 1:7 or 1:9 is hit or miss.

Whether M193 is fired out of a 1:14*, 1:12, 1:9 or 1:7 barrel has zero effect on whether or not it yaws.

*Assuming non-Arctic temps for 1:14

 

[taliv]

Buckshot seemed to do some yawing after a couple walls also.

buckshot is round

 

[moxie]

And not surprising that 855 penetrates. It does have a steel core after all.

 

[Warp]

And not surprising that 855 penetrates. It does have a steel core after all.

No, lead core.

Steel penetrator cone over a lead core with a copper jacket

 

[C-grunt]

Yawing has to do with the fact that the rear of the projectile is heavier than the front. So when it meets resistance it will flip over to base first.

The "over stabilizing" of the bullet in a 1in7 twist is an urban legend.

 

[Warp]

The primary factors in whether or not 193 yaws/tumbles/fragments seem to be velocity at impact and AOA (angle of attack).

Not twist rate.

 

[gotigers]

hmmm. I thought I had read that somewhere. I will do some home work. Live and learn. Regardless, I agree with C-grunt: "Just remember with ball .223/5.56 ammo they don't always yaw and fragment". For whatever reason ball ammo terminal ballistics isn't as predictable as some of the newer bullets. There are very reliable cartridges out there that both perform great against tissue and have less wall penetration.

edit: Here are some wall board tests I've read recently.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/njpdresources/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/test-parameters.html

 

[Cousin]

buckshot is round

I meant it more as straying from its original direction. What's the term for that,... straying?

 

[ugaarguy]

What's the term for that,... straying?

That works. I think deflect (-ed, -ing) might be a slightly better word.

 

[DeMilled]

OP said "So here's my question, which is safer a small chunk or two of fast moving unstable bullet going who knows were, or a slow stable bullet following the path you sent it on?

Slow stable bullet going where you sent it seems safer to me.

Small and fast going places other than where I pointed it is not good, in my book.

I don't like bullets, even small pieces of one, going where I did not point them.

 

[Warp]

OP said "So here's my question, which is safer a small chunk or two of fast moving unstable bullet going who knows were, or a slow stable bullet following the path you sent it on?

Slow stable bullet going where you sent it seems safer to me.

Small and fast going places other than where I pointed it is not good, in my book.

I don't like bullets, even small pieces of one, going where I did not point them.

That's ALL that we are talking about here. By very definition if a projectile/bullet first encounters an interior wall, it just went where you didn't want it to. You must missed your target/attacker.

You seem to be talking as though, in a life or death home invasion or home defense situation, you are going to be able to carefully choose precisely where you stand, where you aim, and where your missed shots go, right down to choosing and knowing the exact path they are aimed towards taking after they pass through a wall.

This seems extremely unrealistic to me.

 

[Riomouse911]

This whole debate revolves around "what if's" and no-win hypothetical situations that may never be settled to anyones satisfaction.

Can just about every .223/5.56 caliber bullet penetrate 2 layers of wallboard? Yes. Can a 9mm, .40, or .45 bullet? Yes. Will any of these be potentially damaging once passing through the 2 layers of wallboard? They all sure can be, as can a .22 LR, a 00 buck pellet, etc.

Most good defensive ammo will easily penetrate the 2 layers of wallboard and then penetrate through 10" of gel. Really good ammo will do this, as well as auto glass at a 45 deg/15 deg compound angle, 20ga metal replicating a car door, 3/4" plywood, etc. Critical Duty (Hornady), SXT (Winchester), etc. (among others)were designed to pass the "FBI protocol", which mandates that the bullets pass through these same barriers and then penetrate 13"+ of gel. I've done these protocol tests on these Hornady/Winchester rounds (9mm, .40, .45, .223), they really do what they say they will with substantial expansion to boot.

Are .223 caliber bullets good at stopping fights? They sure can be, as can the 9mm, .40 and .45, 00 buck, etc. But no caliber or bullet is a good fight stopper until it is placed on target.

Giles Stock said it best when he asked "What is the number one cause of overpenetration issues? Misses."

IMHO, it is far more important that one do the basics before worrying about a hypothetical overpenetration issue:
a) Preventing a break in from occurring. I am not talking about a moat and armed sentries, but making your residence less desireable for a crook to break in. Lights, an alarm, dog, good locks, clearing away hiding areas, etc.. do a lot for you by making somewhere else easier to break into... without a lot of $$.
b) Have a plan of action in case there is a break in for the entire family. Know what to do and where to go, who calls 911, who grabs the kids, where is/are the defensive firearm(s)etc.
c) Becoming very, very familiar, proficient, and confident in your choice of arm(s) and ammunition for defense. This involves making sure the arm is in good condition, the ammo is in good condition, it is 100% reliable, and both are suitable for the job you require it to do.

These should be the primary concerns because, honestly, each and every round fired from just about any firearm can be overpenetrating and dangerous. Stay safe!