Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

5000 fps...and if so...why?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Redlg155, Apr 24, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,724
    Location:
    NW Florida
    I was looking through my newest Lee reloading manual and noticed that I did not see a load over 5000 fps or so. The fastest listed is a 20gr bullet at approx 4600 fps.

    Does anyone make a heavier, lets say 55 grain bullet at 5000 fps, and if so, are there any practical uses?

    What's theoretical or proven speed limit before bullets explode in flight?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  2. igousigloo

    igousigloo Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    I think you just found it.
     
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    It's not the bullets that limit the speed.

    It's the burn rate and expansion ratio of smokeless powder.

    The fastest you can shove a projectile of any weight of any construction, is limited by how fast expanding powder gas can push it at safe pressure limits.

    5,000 is about it with known smokeless powders we have available to us.

    rc
     
  4. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    But like I said, smokeless powder available to manufactures and handloaders is the limiting factor, not the bullets.

    Rail guns and particle accelerators can shoot very small things even faster.
    But they use electrons, not smokeless powder.

    rc
     
  6. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Messages:
    5,072
    Location:
    Allentown, Pennsylvania
    I've always thought a tiny amount of high explosive such as trinitrotoluene would make for a superb propellant in a shoulder fired small arm, in order to propel a projectile far faster than smokeless powder allows. Unfortunately the pressures involved would require much sturdier construction than is typically found in modern small arms.
     
  7. 56hawk

    56hawk Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,298
    QuickLoad predicts I can get around 5000 fps by shooting 97 grain aluminum bullets out of my 460 Weatherby. I'm really tempted to buy some and give it a try.

    Here is a link to the bullets: http://lehighbullets.com/products.asp?cat=32
     
  8. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,859
    Location:
    Elbert County, CO
    Smokless propellants expand at a maximum rate of about 6,000 FPS. Of course, you have to account for friction, so the limit on small arms bullet speed using smokeless propellants is a bit slower, around 5,200-5,300 FPS.

    This is why modern artillery is smoothbore; The 120mm sabot KE penetrator rounds like the KEW-A1 are cookin at about 5,700 FPS.

    It takes explosives or electromagnetic propulsion to go faster. Electromagnetic railguns can hit 35k FPS last time I looked, probably more by now.
     
  9. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    22,854
    "I've always thought a tiny amount of high explosive such as trinitrotoluene"

    That's been tried with mercury fulminate, nitrocellulose, and nitroglycerine. Those folks soon found that you do not want a shock wave as produced by a true explosive. Even a little of it.

    The propellant for the caseless H&K G11 is/was allegedly a denatured explosive rather than a conventional propellant but the key word is denatured. It had explosive chemistry but had been toned down to deflagrate instead of explode.
     
  10. fireman 9731

    fireman 9731 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,198
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Lehigh Bullets makes some amazing stuff....
     
  11. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana
    Did you bother to read the article? They do discuss rail guns early in the article, but the one that is the one under discussion uses "a charge of burning powder" to drive the first stage up to about 150,000 PSI. I doubt that it is black powder. Any handloader with sufficient resources (maybe Bill Gates?) could build the same type of staged compression gun to get extremely high velocities, it's a simple pressure vessel. The secret to it is the way they apply the impulse to the projectile.

    From http://www.nytimes.com/1994/03/22/science/fastest-gun-on-earth-goals-go-beyond-planet.html

     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  12. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    48,923
    Location:
    Alabama
    His point remains valid to the OPs question.
     
  13. gym

    gym member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,903
    Talk about fast, the Air force and Navy, have a 12,000,00 mph hyper engine jet, it flies 20 times the speed of sound, NY to LA in 12 minutes. Problem is they keep blowing up, I think they lost 2 so far, what a weapon system that is when they get it right. They said that the paint peeled off the wings.
     
  14. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,451
    Location:
    'MURICA!
    Dam I have to take a better look at my new Lyman reloading book. That's a screamin velocity!
     
  15. brickeyee

    brickeyee Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3,135
    "but the one that is the one under discussion uses "a charge of burning powder" to drive the first stage up to about 150,000 PSI. "

    You mean the ny times has finally discovered what a light gas gun is?

    The problem is that they are not all that useful.

    We have used them for many years to simulate objects impacting satellites.
     
  16. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana
    The article is from 1994 .....

    But they've probably forgotten all about it by now!
     
  17. Blanco

    Blanco Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    Cowtown Tx.
    Didn't the old Remington .17 get real close to 5k?
    My grandad used a .17 Remi bolt gun for turkey .... Just aim for the head. It usually vaporized it.
     
  18. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,431
    Location:
    South Western, OK
  19. ldsgeek

    ldsgeek Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    110
    Not the paint but the actual skin of the craft. Bernoulli really messed up that design for them.
     
  20. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    22,854
    Yup.
    As Jerry P said of the test, it just goes to show why the ramjet-rocket ground to orbit ship is not a good idea. You do not want to go hypersonic in atmosphere very much.
     
  21. moxie

    moxie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,069
    Location:
    Erath Co., TX
    It's well known in certain circles that a classified small amount of micropulverized unobtainium electrically bonded to granules of certain powders will permit velocities in excess of Mach 7. The problem is that everyone within 1500 meters dies, unless they get out of the area quickly in their scramjet.
     
  22. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,724
    Location:
    NW Florida
    Ok...but what do we get when use the following criteria?

    1. Weapon must be shoulder fired and man portable. A .50 cal Barrett is man portable, so that leaves some room for a heavier weapon.

    2. Able to use a cartridge case to comtain whatever firing compound used.

    3. Somewhat capable of accuracy.

    I for one would like to see a .50 BMG case necked down to about 6mm/.243.
     
  23. fireman 9731

    fireman 9731 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,198
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Or a 50 BMG necked down to 17 caliber....

    [​IMG]

    I got up to 4400 FPS(chronographed) with my 22-250 using 36 grain Barnes Varmint Grenades and Varget. Its right at the the top of max published load data. It couldn't be that hard to squeeze 600 more fps out of something similar.
     
  24. -v-

    -v- Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,217
    Dude, that's photoshopped right?
     
  25. firesky101

    firesky101 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2011
    Messages:
    1,433
    Location:
    California
    I hope not, please tell me you are planning a test rifle fireman

    I am thinking like 2 shots before the barrel is shot out.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page