50s s&w 38 spcl snub
- Thread starter biogenic
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38 Plus-P ammunition falls into a gray area. Much of it is advertising hype but some of it has hair on its chest. Regardless, you aren't going to blow the gun up, but extensive use of the hotter kind can accelerate wear - especially when it comes to cylinder end-shake (back and forth movement of the cylinder, as opposed to rotational movement). Given that you only have 1 7/8” of barrel length the milder Plus-P isn’t going to give you much advantage, and the stuff on the hot end is likely to have recoil to match. Smith & Wesson is no longer fixing these under warrantee, so what ever goes wrong will be fixed on your dime.
Personally, I don’t shoot Plus-P because I am confident in my marksmanship. When I don’t think that .38 Special is enough I carry a .44 Special snubby.
Bottom line: Carry Plus-P ammunition if it makes you feel better, but stick to the regular loads for practice and informal shooting. If you feel you have to shoot a lot of Plus-P buy a newer revolver.
Personally, I don’t shoot Plus-P because I am confident in my marksmanship. When I don’t think that .38 Special is enough I carry a .44 Special snubby.
Bottom line: Carry Plus-P ammunition if it makes you feel better, but stick to the regular loads for practice and informal shooting. If you feel you have to shoot a lot of Plus-P buy a newer revolver.
beatledog7
Member
Even with a modern +P rated S&W snubby, one would be well advised to shoot +P loads sparingly. At the advice of my favorite LGS, I bought some Hornady Critical Defense 110gr +Ps, and they were no fun to shoot. I think I still have a few around, but I will only shoot them in a heavier gun.
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Guillermo
member
Great old gun!!!
Much better than the schlock they make today.
It is important to note that until 1972 regular 38 special ammo was about the same pressure as "+P" of today.
The SAAMI standards were all lowered.
The incomparable SaxonPig did a study on the subject.
Read it all here. Good read.
http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/ammo-forum/77-faq-my-p-study.html
Shoot it all you want, your gun will be fine.
Your accuracy?
Some people shoot the low pressure .38 special better than the "not quite as low pressure" "+P". Some of it may be psychosomatic but no matter, a hit is a hit.
Carry the most gun that you can be accurate with. And that includes ammo choice.
Enjoy your gun.
Much better than the schlock they make today.
It is important to note that until 1972 regular 38 special ammo was about the same pressure as "+P" of today.
The SAAMI standards were all lowered.
The incomparable SaxonPig did a study on the subject.
Read it all here. Good read.
http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/ammo-forum/77-faq-my-p-study.html
Shoot it all you want, your gun will be fine.
Your accuracy?
Some people shoot the low pressure .38 special better than the "not quite as low pressure" "+P". Some of it may be psychosomatic but no matter, a hit is a hit.
Carry the most gun that you can be accurate with. And that includes ammo choice.
Enjoy your gun.
No. With one rare exception all of the .44 Special Smith & Wesson's have been built on their large N-frame, and I have no interest in one of those with a less then 3 1/2 to 4-inch barrel. In my book they don't fit the role of a 2-inch snubby because of the unavoidable weight/mass/size of the frame and cylinder.
My .44 is a Taurus model 445 - a 5-shot/2-inch/blued steel/unported version that is slightly larger then a S&W K-frame, but with a J-frame size grip. While on the large size for the purpose it still is a practical snub-gun. It is usually carried in a IWB holster or a coat side pocket.
I still shake my head in disbelief that anyone would have any reservations about "+P" ammo given what we know. Folks, it's a mild target load.
Check out this ad for S&W ammo from the mid to late 1970s. Note the 38 Special load with a 125 grain bullet at a claimed 1380 FPS. The small print says a test barrel was used so actual velocity will be a little less in a real revolver, but even if we discount 180 FPS (and I don't think it would be that much) at 1200 FPS it still TOWERS over the current +P load at 925 FPS.
Note there is no warning in the ad about pre-model marked guns, pre-war guns, alloy guns or any other guns being unsafe with this ammo that is clearly and unarguably much more powerful than the current "+P" that seems to have everyone in a tizzy. Hell, the 148 full wadcutter is listed at 800 FPS and the 158 lead service load at 910 FPS, the former likely equaling and the latter probably surpassing the chamber pressures of the +P.
Check out this ad for S&W ammo from the mid to late 1970s. Note the 38 Special load with a 125 grain bullet at a claimed 1380 FPS. The small print says a test barrel was used so actual velocity will be a little less in a real revolver, but even if we discount 180 FPS (and I don't think it would be that much) at 1200 FPS it still TOWERS over the current +P load at 925 FPS.
Note there is no warning in the ad about pre-model marked guns, pre-war guns, alloy guns or any other guns being unsafe with this ammo that is clearly and unarguably much more powerful than the current "+P" that seems to have everyone in a tizzy. Hell, the 148 full wadcutter is listed at 800 FPS and the 158 lead service load at 910 FPS, the former likely equaling and the latter probably surpassing the chamber pressures of the +P.
Guillermo
member
*in a sing song voice*
Fuff carries a Taurus...Fuff carries a Taurus
Did you Fitz it?
Guillermo
member
Marketing and advertising work. An ad in today's game will set you back 3 million for 30 seconds. Because it works.
In this case, it works too well.
One fellow, on this board, said something to the effect of "I would never shoot +P out of a gun that is not rated for .357 magnum".
Thank you for all of the well organized information that you regularly offer so as to educate the masses.
No, but it's under consideration, because it's the only currently made revolver that has a cylinder stop spring set-up that wouldn't be compromised by cutting away the trigger guard.
The reason I stopped carrying my self-made Colt was because I was worried that if I used it, and the case ended up in litigation, some lawyer might try to convince a gun-ignorant jury or judge that I was carrying something that was "dangerous," and "prone to go off unexpectedly," (which it wasn't) and portray my behavior as being “reckless.” In FitzGerald's day the issue would likely not come up, and if it did he would be available to testify. Not so today.
beatledog7
Member
My "advice" to shoot +Ps sparingly from a snubby is based on controllability in a very light gun. I don't worry about pressure/longevity issues--just about POA=POI on follow-up shots.
I have 2 gunsmith friends and they both said no to me firing plus P in my early 1950's S&W Mdl. 10. Not worth the being curious on this one just to see if you can do it.
All my other S&W Mdl.10's I only fire plus P 173gr. LSWC. Also I have fired 173gr. LSWC in my S&W Mdl.36, but not as a steady diet.
All my other S&W Mdl.10's I only fire plus P 173gr. LSWC. Also I have fired 173gr. LSWC in my S&W Mdl.36, but not as a steady diet.
Guillermo
member
So essentially your gunsmiths tell you "do not shoot this ammo in this gun, even though it well below the pressure it was designed for"
I would not trust a gunsmith that told me that.
Plus-P ammunition has not always been on the meek side, and even today some smaller companies and custom reloaders turn out some stuff that pushes the envelope. 
At one time I had an opportunity to examine a fairly large lot of older Smith & Wesson K-frame revolvers that had been traded in by a large police department. All had been extensively used with nothing but 125 grain Plus-P ammunition from a big-name producer.
I discovered that an extraordinary number of them were suffering from cylinder end-shake (back and forth movement of the cylinder caused by the end of the yoke barrel being battered by the cylinder), and of the total more then half required attention before being placed out for resale. It was not hard to understand why they had been traded in on new ones.
In most, a casual buyer wouldn’t have discovered the condition.
Perhaps the two gunsmiths mentioned above had experienced something along the same line that I did.
In fact when it was first introduced there was an understanding between the law enforcement buyers and ammunition companies that extensive use could cause accelerated wear.
I would much rather baby my small collection of older revolvers then take a chance of abusing them, especially since repair part stocks keep falling.
Others can do as they wish.
At one time I had an opportunity to examine a fairly large lot of older Smith & Wesson K-frame revolvers that had been traded in by a large police department. All had been extensively used with nothing but 125 grain Plus-P ammunition from a big-name producer.
I discovered that an extraordinary number of them were suffering from cylinder end-shake (back and forth movement of the cylinder caused by the end of the yoke barrel being battered by the cylinder), and of the total more then half required attention before being placed out for resale. It was not hard to understand why they had been traded in on new ones.
In most, a casual buyer wouldn’t have discovered the condition.
Perhaps the two gunsmiths mentioned above had experienced something along the same line that I did.
In fact when it was first introduced there was an understanding between the law enforcement buyers and ammunition companies that extensive use could cause accelerated wear.
I would much rather baby my small collection of older revolvers then take a chance of abusing them, especially since repair part stocks keep falling.
Others can do as they wish.
Beatledog7- I recommend shooting ammo that is hard to control a lot, to get better with it.
Old Fluff- You often mention your experience with the battered K frames. I have not heard another such story but I can guess the amount of shooting was tremendous and the guns would be worn regardless of ammo. Guns are made up of moving parts and they do wear out. Facts are facts. The +P is loaded well below max pressure so it can't beat guns to death any more than can "regular" ammo since +P is "regular" ammo.
Here it is, again. My 1942 M&P pictured with the 500 rounds of Rem +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ I put through it with no discernible effect.
Old Fluff- You often mention your experience with the battered K frames. I have not heard another such story but I can guess the amount of shooting was tremendous and the guns would be worn regardless of ammo. Guns are made up of moving parts and they do wear out. Facts are facts. The +P is loaded well below max pressure so it can't beat guns to death any more than can "regular" ammo since +P is "regular" ammo.
Here it is, again. My 1942 M&P pictured with the 500 rounds of Rem +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ I put through it with no discernible effect.
Guillermo
member
the gun in question was designed to handle 22,000 PSI with a BIG safety margin.
Why would 17,000 worry anyone?
Why would 17,000 worry anyone?
CajunBass
Member
It's getting so I'm worried that I won't be able to shoot primer powred, wax bullets pretty soon.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Some of those large police departments were the ones responsible for the +P+ ammo orders while trying to wring .357 performance out of their old .38 Spl revolvers too.
rc
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