6.5x55mm rifles vs. 7.62x54mmR rifles - compare?

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shadow9

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Been researching the reloading and rifles used and such of the Swede and the Ruskie...and have come to a tie...more or less. Own(ed) and shot both...and having a tough time settling.
They both are VERY versatile...and have insane takedown potential. As much as a .30-06 (yes, I said it *dons flame-gear*:uhoh:), with proper loadings. With the fact that an M39 Finn can run (and is happier with) .308cal ammo vs .310 Russian, the old grampy in an accurate Finn would give most x55's a run for the money.
Both can be loaded with large-grain rounds, thus boosting SD/BC. The .30 cal ammo is easier to find, with 4x the variety of .264, which is a plus. However, in terms of performance, the x55 will do the job with ALOT less kick. A 54R will let you know what it is, about as much as the other end.
Another plus for the x54R - 57,000 CIP case pressure rating! :what: Big Boomski. Reflected in the 2,600-2,800 lb-ft of muzzle energy, and the ability to say "Hi!" at 300yards with 1600 of it remaining...
The swedes only can go up to 46K (heh, only), but then again the swede doesn't seem to change much in speed/accuracy with hotloads. That, and long rounds at high speed=barrel wear.
Swedish has a narrower neck too, sharper angle. FWIK, this means faster throat erosion. Although, for most purposes, you generally relish the amazingness of a 6.5, rather than humping it out of the gun like x39. :p
Swedes leave with around 1,900-2,100 lb-ft, and still arrive carrying 1,300-1,500 of it at 300yds. Impressive, considering it is a smaller round, has S.D. on it's side, and has been known to sell double-discounts on deer-piercings the world over. :scrutiny:

Anyways...

Its night-time, I figured I'd leave this here... :rolleyes:
 
But the 6.5x55 is magical and is full of win and awesome.

Honestly, I do like the 6.5x55 for its relatively low recoil. I had a Swedish M96 for several years and enjoyed it quite a bit.
I have long wanted a modern bolt action chambered for this cartridge as a dedicated deer (and everything else) rifle, as this cartridge is among my favorites.
One of these days, I'll actually get around to buying one.
 
I own multiples in both calibers and personally choose the "Swede" for serious accuracy work. My M39's coupled with the Lapua D166 bullet (designed for the M39) are solid contenders at considerably more cost to reload due to bullet pricing alone.
 
I had noticed that looking up reloading supplies - the brass on a x54R is very expensive. Swede for accuracy, but which would you choose for woodland/hunting? I would still place the x54R there for a solid hunter.
What sort of groups does your M39 with D166 pull?
 
Snowdog there are a number of modern rifles in 6.5x55. Howa make one as well as Tikka and Sako. But why dont you look at a 260rem it will do exactly what the 6.5x55 will do but in a short action.
 
Both offer a lot of fascinating projects for the hand loader. The 6.5, particularly with fast military twists, can cope with very very long bullets that are almost like crossbow bolts and have exceptional sectional density. This gives them big game killing power you'd never expect from the raw ft. lbs.
 
Shadow 9,

I really like both and must say that you would be shocked at how well the Swede works with the right bullet, heck they use them on Moose in the "Motherland".

I need to dig up a few old M39 targets, or pictures because you wouldn't believe it otherwise. The formula is Lapua Brass + Vithavuori N140 Powder + Lapua D166 equals = Holy Smokes in a M39 with good bore.
 
Snow - Fullboar is right - Tikka and CZ are two of the tops for modern 6.5x55 guns(in a usual pricerange). Or a Steyr ProHunter offers in 6.5x55...and they're known to be total tack-drivers. The Howas are normally VERY accurate, but the 6.5 was a shortfall when they made it. Possibly barrel design, but few have ever reported incredible accuracy out of their 6.5x55 Howa.
.260 Rem is an amazing caliber, it's pretty much a modern-day American-produced build of the 6.5x55. The only drawbacks are reduced barrel life (throat erosion due to casing a .308->.264, plus ultra-fast round), and that I haven't heard of loads exceeding 140gr. But I believe Savage makes a modern .260, which coupled with less expensive barrels and their "Lego-set" barrel fitment, makes for a good rifle. If you have an AR-15 variant, look into the 6.5 Grendel. There's a video on YouTube of a full-size buffalo dropping straight down in place from one shot of a well-placed grendel. :)
Blackswan - My old M39 was stolen, unfortunately, as it was my FAVORITE gun. I put a cheap recoil pad on the back, and honestly there wasn't much difference between my M96 and my M39 (w/recoil pad) in terms of kick. The M39 thundered like Mjollonir every time it was shot, part of why I loved it. Plus, I could pry my own empties off at about 30yards with the accuracy on $5.80 hungarian surplus. :p
True, I have heard of the Swede dropping Moose.
Likewise, my new Swede is very impressive, as it's groups are about 4MOA due to a problem between trigger and shoulders, but where the sight is when I am is where the hole is when I check. Plus, seeing it make two-tiny piercings in a water jug, while emptying the contents out the side from the pressure alone is awesome. :)
 
I shoot a lot of 54r, and have come to learn that its a really funky cartridge. That 57,000CIP pressure seems to be some kind of guess and i really wonder who came up with that. I don't think anyone truly knows that the max psi of the 54r actually is. Some reloading manuals have it in listed as low as 45,000 while others are at 57,000. But if you look at some of the surplus loadings out there, they are pushing 182gr projectiles at around 2600fps. That's got to be some high pressure and much more than 45,000; its probably somewhere in the 60k area.
 
Two years ago with my M 39 Sako taking this huge boar using Czech made Sellier and Bellot 180 gr SP. It kicks a little more than my Lee Enfield No 4 in .303 Brit . Between the two i d go for the M 39 for sheer power and low price ammo that doesnt break the bank. And accuracy is right there.

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To me, comparing a Finn M39 to a Swedish Mauser is like comparing a HumVee (the Finn) to a Corvette (the Swede).

I've owned both and true the Finn's are remarkably accurate, but there's still the clunky action, the ridiculously short bolt handle, the single stack magazine that hangs below the stock like cancerous tumor, and the ancient rimmed cartridge for which it is chambered.

.310/.311" bullets....what a pain in the arse. I know, some .310", .311", .312", etc. bore shoot some .308" bullets O.K....but what a headache for a handloader. (That'd be me) So, if you shoot the proper bullets, they're pain to find and always expensive. And as a whole, .30 caliber bullets take a back seat....yea even a ride in the trailer to 6.5 bullets when it comes to ballistic coefficient.
So basically with the x54r, you have a 308 Winchester (power-wise) in a big, dopey looking rimmed case, that must be loaded with bastard size bullets.

The Swede's on the other hand are just more...of everything. Silky smooth action, a compact, efficient magazine that's fully contained in the stock, and a bolt handle with sufficient length and correct placement so that the action can be cycled without dismounting the rifle.

Don't let U.S. manufacturers loads make you think the 6.5 is wheezing for air. Norma of Sweden knows how to load for the 6.5x55. Their 6.5x55 DL Fält loads a 130 gr. bullet with a B.C. of .548:)what:) to almost 3000 fps. That folks is 270 Win. territory. Their hunting bullet load data also provides for:
3000 fps w/ a 120 gr., 2900 fps w/ a 130 gr., 2700 w/ a 140 gr., and if you need insane penetration you can run a 156/160 gr. to 2600 fps.

The 6.5x55, when handloaded, or stoked with good ammo such as Norma, is basically the ballistic twin of the 260 Remington.

Regarding muzzle energy, retained energy, blah, blah, blah. It has NOTHING to do with killing in the real world. You see and animal from elk size and down, you poke a hole through both it's lungs with a decent bullet from either cartridge, and the animal WILL die.

And finally, the measure by which I judge all milsurp rifles are the results from the annual Vintage Match at Camp Perry. This is where the boys play for keeps. Their rifles must not only be accurate, but also must be smooth and easy to reload to facilitate rapid fire strings. Here's the link to some of the results from years past. Not surprisingly, the Swede has a huge following among the top winners:

2007 Vintage Military Rifle Match Results

2008 Vintage Military Rifle Match Results

2009 Vintage Military Rifle Match Results

2010 Vintage Military Rifle Match Results

O.K.....there's my 2¢.....
35W
 
what a pain in the arse.
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One man's pain is another man's incentive to get up and fiddle. The weirdness of the 54R is one of its main appeals to me. I get bored quickly with more predictable cartridge/rifle combinations. With Mosins, every one is like a surprise box. You have to fiddle and explore, and what works wonders for one may fail miserably in another. My current shooter, a 1970 M39, and by prior experience with "sneak" Finns it ought to be geared for light ball, tight-bored rounds close to .308" or D166 rounds. Yet it is freakishly accurate with .312" Woodleigh 215 grainers I had originally hoped to use in a wide-bored M44. Who'd have thunk it?

Also, just as an aside, that stumpy bolt handle is like that for a reason and can be worked very quickly once you figure out how to smack it properly.
 
I also do some handloading and thats the worst part about the 54r, those damn .311 bullets. If i ever shoot out my barrel, ill have it rebarreled with a 308 dia so i can use proper bullets. From what i can tell, 311 bullets are not really any more expensive than 308 bullets. If i look at midways site, its 30.99 for a box of .308 cal 168gr sierra match kings, and for 175gr .311 match kings, its 31.99. So price isnt really a concern, but the lack of selection is.

I'm not brave enough to try this, but a guy on another forum told me he loads his 54r with 51gr of RL-15 under a 150gr sierra soft point. My guess at the FPS of that load has to be around 3000fps! He said its very accurate and sees no signs of overpressure. Sounds pretty crazy to me. For comparison, I think the max 308win RL-15 load for 150gr bullet is around 46gr's!
 
Also, just as an aside, that stumpy bolt handle is like that for a reason and can be worked very quickly once you figure out how to smack it properly.
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I wish I knew the reason. To me it makes no practical sense, and I'll be damned if it can be worked quickly! A glance of my FFL log book shows I owned eight different Mosin's including two M39's. I'm down to one which I'll be selling soon.
Sometimes I'm tempted to buy another such as when I see the Big5 ad (like yesterday) and they're only $79, or I peruse Pat Burns' page and I see those tack-driving M39's. But then I remember that for the moeny I drop into another Mosin, I can pick up another K-31 or some GP-11!

I'm not brave enough to try this, but a guy on another forum told me he loads his 54r with 51gr of RL-15 under a 150gr sierra soft point.
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I don't know if that's all that hot of a load. My Lyman manual shows that load as max with a 125 gr. bullet and the velocity at 2973. So with a 150 gr. I'm guessing around 2900 or maybe a tad less.

35W
 
For those interested: you can still buy high end rifles in 6.5x55.
Hunters can have the Blaser, long range target shooters can buy the Unique Alpine or even the Grunig & Elmiger rifles in 6.5x55. That goes without saying for the long range accuracy of the cartridge.
6.5x55 is a lot flatter and less wind-sensitive then 308win, due to the BC of teh bullet.
For me, shooting my polish M44 is spectacular (great balls of fire, big boom, recoil) shooting my 1906 M96 is SWEET (accurate, low recoil due to the heavy rifle, action sweeter then most modern bolt action rifles), right next to my K31.

greetings

Peter
 
I wish I knew the reason. To me it makes no practical sense, and I'll be damned if it can be worked quickly!
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There's a technique to it, just as there is for speed-firing a Swede. You don't grab the knob with your big fingers, you use your little fingers to guide your PALM into position, then use it to crank back and slam forward. In this way you use your major arm muscles not your small finger muscles:

cycle.jpg

This fellow has it down:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoyI2AEPD6E
 
Go with the 6.5x55. 6.5mm bullets are popular and very accurate. These things are also extremely accurate. Again, as previously mentioned, 6.5x55 rifles are still in production.

On a side note, I just picked up a Ruger No. 1 in 6.5x55. It is a beautiful and accurate rifle.
 
I'm extremely fond of my Swedish Mauser. Never got that excited about M-N's, ended up giving the one I owned to a buddy before I moved to AK rather than paying to ship it up here. Still have the Swede though.
 
I hunt skunks and raccoons at twilight with my SVT-40. One round is all it takes, although the availability of an additional nine is (theoretically) a plus. Accuracy has never seemed to be a problem with the 7.62.
 
instead of compairing the two you could combine them by buying you one of these handy dandy 6.5/7.62x54r reamers and a barrel blank.then you could have a 6.5 mosin.
65mosinreamer.jpg
 
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