642 Club Part Deux

[NATE42ND]

I shot my little 442. I like it. I have GIANT hands and it's a litle awkward but i'll keep at it. All around these are nice little guns. That trigger is sure not going to get pulled on accident. holy crap. Looks like I found a good BUG.

 

[Indy5000]

Special Revolver Commemorates Landmark Heller Decision

And it is going to be a specially engraved S&W 442

Story and pictures are here: http://www.guntalk.com/site.php?cid=120057&pageID=15&newsID=44

This is a joint effort between Tom Gresham from Gun Talk and S&W.

If the link isn't working I've added the info here:

Sometimes things work out, and in this case, it's a home run! Three weeks ago on my Gun Talk Radio Show, I offered the idea of a presentation gun to be given to the six original plaintiffs in what started off as the "Parker" case, and then became the Heller case. That's the case where the U. S. Supreme Court ruled on June 26 that the Second Amendment is, in fact, an individual right, and the court threw out the total handgun ban in Washington, DC.

I'd love to say it was my idea, but I got the suggestion from a listener and Truth Squad member. I liked it, so I picked up the ball and ran with it.

Now, only three weeks later, it's reality. Even better, you can buy one.

On Sunday, July 20, I'll announce on the radio the new "D.C. vs. Heller" revolver from Smith & Wesson. It's the alloy frame model 442, which is a hammerless J-frame (the small frame) in .38 Special. It's very lightweight, with rubber grips. It's a perfect self-defense revolver.

Before I get into the details, let me tell you how it came about. I initially thought that a revolver was the way to go because Fenty, the mayor of D.C., has stated that the city will not allow anyone to register semi-auto handguns. The city classifies autoloaders as machine guns, which tells you how much they know about guns. Clearly, semi-autos are the most popular type of handgun being sold, so there is nothing unusual about them. Of course, this means is that the District will be sued...again...and will lose. Fenty should be impeached for wasting public money. But, I didn't want the six people who stood up to claim their Second Amendment rights to have to wait, so we went with a revolver.

I began the conversation with Smith & Wesson, and they immediately said yes. They didn't even know what they were committing to, but they liked the idea. A week ago my son, Ryan, and I were shooting video at the S&W plant for Gun Talk TV, and we met with Tom Taylor and Paul Pluff to discuss it. Tom suggested that rather than making just six of the guns, that they make a special gun and offer it for sale to everyone. A share of the revenue would be used to fund the lawsuits which are ongoing right now.

So, that's what we are doing. A portion of the sales will go to the Second Amendment Foundation, which has been instrumental in not only the Heller case, but in funding legal scholarship on the Second Amendment over the last 20 years. SAF filed suit against the city of Chicago (which has a ban just like D.C.'s) within minutes of the Supreme Court decision on Heller.

Click Here to view photos of the special Model 442. You can see the neat laser engraving with the scales of justice, the date of the decision (June 26, 2008), and the words "D.C. vs Heller" on the scale. Note that the side of the scale holding "Heller" is weighted down -- the winner! There's also an engraving saying "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms" on the revolver.

The black finish on this gun takes laser engraving very well, and the engraved parts show up in a satin-silver finish. It looks great!

The revolver will be available for sale in early fall -- right around the corner. Honestly, I can't think of a better gift for yourself or someone in your family to note this critically-important blow for gun rights. I wouldn't claim that this will be a collector's item -- I don't think it will -- but it's going to be something special to have in future years.

I'm happy to have been able to push this through. Here's a big attaboy to the men and women who worked on this case for so long, and to the six D.C. residents who put their names on the lawsuit. Talk about having the "no shrug" attitude we talk about on the radio! They wouldn't take it anymore.

Listen in to Gun Talk for more information. We'll have Tom Taylor from Smith & Wesson and Alan Gottlieb from the Second Amendment Foundation on at 2:10pm Eastern time, July 20.

As we get more information about ordering this special revolver (expect a street price in the $450 range), I'll put it out on the air. You can buy a special gun and help continue the fight for gun rights. Not bad, indeed.

-- Tom Gresham

More Images here: http://www.guntalk.com/site88.php#

 

[AStone]

Link seems to be at least temporarily dead, Indy. I'll try again later.

Any other links? If not, what is it? Th' suspense is killin' me.
______________

Just got back home after 10 days in another city for business/pleasure. Had a great time eating amazing food, drinking great beers, biking on designated bike boulevards, hanging with friends. Even work was a kick.

But I missed my mule. Didn't carry it because I thought I was going to need to take Amtrak back. (Didn't, but ...)

First thing I did on getting back: strap it on.
_____________

Reading through the last few posts, getting caught up, I felt a bit of nostalgia. This club has been such an amazing trip.

So much useful information, comradery (sp?), humor ...

It's changed so much in interesting and good ways: many of the first members still around, lot's of new members (must be time for a roll call)

Speaking of friends, anybody heard from JT?

 

[AStone]

A can of worms

Surfing around for info on SD rnds for a .30-30 (another story entirely),
I found this Chuck Hawks repost of an essay by another writer on SD rnds, with this little snippet:

A Special Note on Snub-Nose .38 Revolvers With 2" or 3" Barrels: The Cor-Bon .38 Special +P 125 grain JHP and 158 grain LSWCHP FBI load are not the best choice for 2" or 3" barrel revolvers. The short barrel does not provide enough velocity to ensure reliable expansion with these load, and the unpleasant and hard-to-control recoil hurts snub-nose accuracy (as well as your hand). Controllability is crucial, and I recommend non +P standard pressure loads, for the .38 snub-nose.

That statement by said guest essayist was followed closely by this one, which seems to indicate a bit of equivocation:

Good +P choices for a steel-frame 2" .38 snub-nose revolver are:

* Federal 125 grain +P Nyclad LSWHP (P38N) - my preferred .38 2" barrel snub-nose revolver load (a.k.a. the "Chief's Special" load, now available only to the police).
* Federal 129 grain +P Hydra-shok JHP (P38HS1)
* Remington 125 grain +P Golden Saber HPJ (GS38SB)
* Cor-Bon 110 grain +P JHP - I would recommend this high-pressure load only for the sturdy (and heavy) Ruger SP101 snub-nose .38 or .357 Magnum revolver.

I've read a fair number of Mr. Hawk's articles, but have missed that one until now.

Question: why do you think the author he quoted advised shooting "non +P standard pressure loads".
Does it relate to his statement that "Controllability is crucial..."?

(I am annoyed when writers make statements like that without explanation. )

 

[226]

I've seen that recommendation before, standard non +P wadcutters, over at Tactical Forums (I belive you have to be a member to read this):

.38 Sp BUG load testing, member DocGKR

Here is the Dr. Roberts quote:

While oversimplified, bare gelatin gives information about best case performance, while 4 layer denim provides data on worst case performance--in reality, the actual performance may be somewhere in between.

During a conversation I had with a senior ammunition engineer at Winchester last week, he remarked that, "Bullets which do well in the 4 layer denim testing have worked very well on the street".

The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration and might give expansion in the scenario you describe--if you shoot it better than the wadcutter, then by all means use it. We have found that officers are much more accurate and tend to train more when issued the 148 gr standard pressure wadcutters, so that is what is used.

One other point, there have been many reports in the scientific literature, by Dr. Fackler and others, recommending the 158 gr +P LSWCHP as offering adequate performance. Please put this in context for the time that these papers were written in the late 1980's and early 1990's--no denim testing was being performed at that time, no robust expanding JHP's, like the Fed Tac, Speer Gold Dot, or Win Ranger Talon existed. In the proper historical perspective, the 158 gr +P LSWCHP fired out 3-4" barrel revolvers was one of the best rounds available--and it is still a viable choice, as long as you understand its characteristics.

Finally, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend you time and money on develping a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.

 

[Downrange]

I tend to discount what most "experts" say, relying instead on my own range testing with my weapons and a chrono. My 642 shoots +P just fine, I handle the recoil well, and it's actually usually a bit more accurate. I'll take the extra 100 fps, thankee.

 

[DAdams]

The Key

A great deal of bandwith and paper has been pushed regarding "best round" for snubs. There have definitely been some improvement in performance over the last 5-10 years. Much of the old data is still kicking around but must be tempered by comparison with "today's" developments. So, while the great debate goes on I'll bet this will do more for ultimate "survivability" than the nuance of 100fps. Shot placement and....

Finally, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend you time and money on develping a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.

It certainly is worthwhile practicing with what you carry and going through a few permutations of "good stuff" to find that which works for the individual.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I heard from jt1 a couple of weeks ago. He is alive and well when last I heard.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nem-

Glad you had a good trip and got to clear your head.

My 30-30 sits in my office charged with the LeveRevolution, Flex tip
160 gr. nominal 1500 fps and .2 inch drop at 200 yards.

Do I worry about over penetration? No because the 12 gauge comes out first. Then the 686.

 

[AStone]

Clearing the head

Glad you had a good trip and got to clear your head.

Thanks, DA.

Head clearing is important, no?

My gtr (go to rifle) these days is either
the 336 (.30-30) or the 1894C (.357 mag).
(Having trouble w/ cycling the '94C,
so mainly the 336 now.)

The 65 (.357 mag) comes out second.

I don't own a shotgun right now,
but plan to add a Stoeger SxS.
(Mostly for upland birds ...)

Of course, the 642 is always at my side
when I'm in the studio at work (as now).

 

[Shade00]

I have been going back and forth on a 442 for a while. I almost got one for my wife, but I got a good deal on a Mod. 37 (no dash/flat latch). Of course, after shooting one cylinder, my wife put it down and told me no thanks. I tried a cylinder and couldn't take the sharp pain either.

I have been looking for a 432, as I think .32 H&R Magnum would be easier for my wife, but they are expensive when I have located them. So my question is, do the Models 442 and 642 handle recoil a little better than the old school 37? I was shooting Remington 130gr non +P rounds through it and couldn't take it.

I am still holding out hope that S&W will release a J-frame in .327 Federal Mag, but that may be a long shot. At any rate, the Model 37 is getting traded away or sold almost immediately.

 

[Bleys]

I wish I had read all of this thread and the 1st before now, but last night I went out and purchased my first wheel-gun, a 642 with the CT grips, along with my first auto (topic for a different thread). I love it and if anyone is sitting on the fence they need to jump off and go get one. She handles like a dream with the non +p loads I ran through her last night at the range. I have a box of +P and some other defensive loads I'm gonna see how she handles on my next trip to the range.

My only minor problem is that I have to develop a much more sensitive feel for my 642 to shoot her as accurately as I know I can. My trigger control is a little lacking with my rather large hands swallowing the grip. My first target looked like I had loaded some .38 balls into a 12 ga and shot the paper at about 15 yds w/o a choke.

Any advice to a new owner?

 

[AStone]

Welcome to the club, Bleys.

Advice: lots of dry fire practice (triple check unloaded status); work on that "squeeze" while keeping the sights steady.

Then, practice initially with light rnds (non +P) just to get the feel for it.

Keep us posted about how you're doing with it.

 

[Boatman]

cleaning 642

I know I have read in a prior post how I should clean and the precautions I should take to maintain the finish. I can't find that post now that I need it. Can someone summarize for me what I need to do. I think the post said to not use a brass brush and to use some special cleaner and some type of special cloth. I've looked but I can't find it anymore.

thanks

 

[jfh]

Bleys: For effective practice with a j-frame snub, try the following:

1. Shoot at five yards

2. Use a blank sheet of 8.5 x 11 paper. No 'bullseye' is needed; you are learning to shoot where you point the revolver--and you will probably subconsciously adjust your handgrip at some point to align the sights.

Obviously, if you need to, sight in the CT grip--personally, I do this at 10-15 yards off a benchrest. Use the Miculek grip--i.e., the off-hand thumb over the right hand, not alongside, semiauto style.

3. Shoot the lightest load you can find--even a softball DEWC load is fine.

Choose whatever grip / stance feels good to you. Personally, with CT grips, I concentrate on the laser dot only; I do not use the sights.

Shooting as rapidly as you can, get all the shots on the paper. If they are not, then slow down until they are.

Once they are all on the paper, now concentrate on making the group smaller. Do not back up; keep shooting at five yards.

The goal is, ultimately, to get off five shots in a five-inch circle, in five seconds, at five yards . This is called "Old Fuff's 4x5."

Once you can do that, reliably, then start changing the parameters one at a time--i.e., upgrade the ammo, or back up to seven yards--but don't worry about getting the group smaller. FWIW, a 5" group--nominally fist-sized--is also a heart-sized group.

While you are shooting, "concentrate" on the factor you are trying to improve--but only that factor. Worry about the speed last--that usually comes with practice, anyway; don't try to speed up but concentrate on the group at that distance.

It takes a lot of practice to shoot a j-frame / 2" well--good luck with it.

Jim H.

 

[Bleys]

Thanks for the advice, I know one thing about the gun so far: it will never leave my collection, in the 50 rounds I fired last night trying to get the feel of it I fell in love with it, and the laser grips. Now I'm off to go find something equivalent for my USP, maybe a TLR-2 and a rail adapter, who knows.

 

[The_Shootist]

Joined The Club

Picked up my 642 (non-ILS version) today, so I'm a newbie to this club, but not to snubs owning a 3 1/3" bbl SP101 and a M85. The M85 I seem to be pretty good with, being able to put 5 shots of BB standard pressure 158 gr in/near the bullseye in no worse than a 4" group at 7 yds. Could be better, and I'm working on it, but it would likely be good enough in a SD situation.

Now, putting 120 rds today through the 642 today, I was all over the map but tightening towards the end of the session. I shot a few rounds of the BB standard pressure stuff and again was pretty good, which gave me some confidence as this would be my carry load.

It took me at least 400 rounds through my M85 before I had achieved tight and accurate groups so I figure similiar and more practice is in order with the 642. Assuming I'll get the grip/trigger & pull down my main question is with sight alignment.

Is proper sight alignment (using 158gr loads) along the lines of --- ? Not -i-?
That is, you align the top of the frontsight so that it is level (not above, not below) with the rear notch/sightplane of the 642. Having said that, would it help to daub a bit of florescent model paint on the front sight just to aid/speed aquisition? I use a dab of Testors florescent model pain on my M85.

 

[AStone]

Heya, Shootist. Welcome.

You'll find a bunch of us here more committed to the point'n'shoot technique than the sights group. I'm one of them.

When I shoot my levers, I use sights. I even practice with them with my 65.

But for the snub, I'm committed to point'n'shoot.

YMMV, of course.

Nem

 

[JB Books]

I have 7 j-frames.

1. Wife carries one with pink rubber grips.

2. I have one with smooth rosewood grips with smith emblems

3. My 86 year old granny has one in her den standard rubber grips.

4. Granny also has a nickled 49 "Bodyguard" by her bed.

5. My aunt has a blued model 36. She is a widow.

6. I have a blued Model 36.

7. I have a nickled 36 (I think).

FYI Granny also has a Colt 1903 and a Browning 1955 stashed where she can get to them.

 

[DAdams]

Club Welcome To

Bleys
Shootist
Books. Your Granny sounds like quite a lady! Nice collection you have there.

All. We of course solicit your pics.

How about a head count?? Are we over 800 members strong yet.

 

[AStone]

How about a head count?? Are we over 800 members strong yet.

It's hard to know anymore. Some who posted in the old club house (pre part deux) may not have posted here.

I've tried to do a role sheet like I've done in the past, but can't remember how I did it so easily then.

 

[tilden]

My First 642

I just brought home my first 642. After reading most of the post on this thread I decided it was time to get my CP-should have it in a couple of weeks- and buy something I believe will be the best for my carrying needs.
I also just ordered a pocket holster from Mr. Mika. What a great gentleman he was to deal with. The holster should be here in six weeks. I also received some information from a snubby instructor that I think will be invaluable to me and to anyone who is new, like me, to snubby's.

"1. Find one top-quality inside-the-waist holster that you can comfortable wear and work with for years. (You may try Mitch Rosen's ARG. - VERY pricey but it may be the best ever)

2. Practicing your draw stroke (unloaded) every day for a minute for the rest of your life.

3. On the range load no more than two rounds at a time (not side-by-side) then pull the trigger on all five cylinders. This will: extend your range time, reduce your costs, help you with trigger control, reinforce sight picture and follow through, instill an appreciation of the tactical (rushed reloading) value of a partial cylinder, break you of any flinch you might have, to name only a few items.

4. When dry firing or live firing, learn to master two-hand and one-hand shooting, both right and left handed. This include re-loading skills.

General tactics:

5. Never draw then fire from the same starting spot. Stand - Side step - Draw. If your range won't let you practice this, do it when you practice your daily dry-fire draw.

6. Set reasonable targets (3" x 5" index cards) at reasonable distances (9- to 12 feet) and learn to empty the snub (2-rounds 5-trigger pulls) into the card. Start from the draw stroke and without a time limit, then work down to two seconds. Remember, better (for self-defense) to master five rounds in 1-second than 1-round in 5-seconds. As Jeff Cooper used to say, if your group is [too] tight, your taking too long."

If their is anything else you all think I should know or have, I would greatly appreciate your advice.

Best Regards,

 

[308win]

Tilden, some nice tips there; especially the load two fire five. Be interesting so see how many will admit they have a nasty flinch.

 

[AStone]

I agree with 308, Tilden: interesting tips.
I'll try those.

 

[johnnylaw53]

Tilden good tips, you learn more when your weapon don't go bang then you do when it does, when our range master is teaching a new class I have seen him load magazines up with a few dummy rounds to see how fast it take the shooter to get the weapon working again, it's funny to stand on the side and see thier faces when it don't go bang.

 

[AF_ONE]

I've been carrying a 642 for approx 10 years now--its the only thing I've felt was comfortable enough to take anywhere.

 

[1/7GRUNT]

Since I was not around in the good old days of the 642 club part one when will we make the switch to part TRE (no French here!)?
Im still enjoying this one!