7.62 Lake City Brass and IMR 4064

[Slamfire]

I think 43 grains will be fine with a 150 grain bullet. In my rifle, 44 grs is where I stopped with IMI brass, which is just as heavy as LC. IMI brass was hot stuff in the M1a, it is good heavy brass. The best was LC, but that was not always to be had.


Ruger M77 26 " Barrel 1:10 twist

150 Sierra Matchking 39.0 grs IMR 4064 Lot 2449 LC67 CC#34 OAL 2.750"
30 April 2008 T = 71 °F

Ave Vel = 2416
Std Dev = 52
ES = 113
High = 2479
Low = 2366
N = 5

150 Sierra SP BT 44.0 grs IMR 4064 IMI brass CCI200 LC90 OAL 2.760"
30 April 2008 T = 80 °F

Ave Vel = 2749
Std Dev = 14
ES = 47
High = 2777
Low = 2730
N = 10
v.good accuracy, no increased effort on bolt lift

With an M1a, I used a max of 42.5 grs IMR 4064 with a 168 Match. Always wanted midrange loads that did not give surprises on 90 degree days!

Toasty!

 

[lgjhn]

I’ve been shooting LC 7.62 brass and IMR4064 since 1995.
Here’s some info I’ve found over the years that might be of some help.
Yes. It is thicker/tougher to handle than commercial brass, but for MY RIFLES, not enough to really matter on my loads to compensate for the slightly thicker case wall, but safety is always #1 so work your loads up for YOUR RIFLE.
The head stamp will have the year stamped on there, and IF it also says “MATCH”, you won’t have to worry about swaging the primer pockets as they were never crimped for the match ammo. Plus, they were likely never fired out of a machine gun. That’s a good thing.
The non-match stuff will have crimped primer pockets that will have to be dealt with. Plus, there’s a good possibility it was likely fired from a MG. These cases are gonna be even tougher to resize, but it can be done.
FWIW, I use Redding Imperial sizing wax, Redding dies and Redding neck case lube to handle all the LC stuff.
You’re gonna have to bump the shoulder back on this stuff slightly to make it work in your chamber. I’ve found that 1/4 turn more from shell holder contact on my sizing die usually does the trick for my rifle chamber.
I check case run out and find most of em are in the .002-.003” range. The ones outside of that I set aside for plinking ammo. The ones there are near zero to .001” I use for my long range stuff. I also anneal this stuff on every reload.
The early match brass was not knurled (late 60s, 70s and early 80s). I think it was about 1985, LC started knurling the MATCH cases on the outside about a 1/2” up from the base of the cartridge on . This was done to distinguish the ammo as “non-combat” use only. That brass is fine to use, but the only drawback is the knurling is about where one would see the dreaded head space separation signs. So, I give that brass a real good inside inspection on every reload, especially if it’s been fired a few times.
I use IMR4064 (42gr.) primarily with 168 SMKs in my 26” fluted-barrel Remington 700 (1:12 twist) for longer range precision stuff.
I shoot 130gr Speer JHPs on top of about 47 grains of 748 WIN powder. I use the 748 ball powder for this round because it meters very well allowing for usage of a powder drop to make a bunch of rounds go a little faster than measuring each Lincoln Log 4064 to get a precise charge. I use the 130 gr. Speer JHPs for hogs, coyotes, etc. It’s a fast round and pretty devastating on those critters.
Hope this helps ya out some.

 

[Charlie98]

I have found imr 4895 as good . But 4064
is my goto powder for a 308.

That's me as well. I've actually split into two different camps...

When I started loading .308, I used IMR4895 exclusively; I already had it on hand for my M1 Garand, and it was a standard for the .308 in the M1a. It worked well enough with 150grn bullets there... even with the 16" barrel of my Socom16, although the velocity was not what I would have hoped.

Then I got my Savage 10TAC with a 24" barrel. It showed a serious dislike for IMR4895 for some reason, and particularly with 150grn bullets. I switched to 168's and things improved, then switched to IMR4064 and things got even betterer.

Back to the M1a... which has a 16" barrel... I dropped down to IMR3031, and things seemed to work better there... at least as good as IMR4895, and I'm hoping when I get done with my load workups, even bettererer than IMR4895.

So now... I'm back to IMR4895 just for the M1 Garand... and now I have 2 more powders on the bench.

 

[TheClasonater]

Thanks for the info fellers. Here's the sitch right meow. I bumped the shoulders a little too much cuz I got frustrated. About 5 thou instead of my usual 2 or 3. You're right on the money, it was harder to work. I will eat my humble pie for this one and move on.

I loaded 8 rounds of with IMR 4064 and 150 grn Speer Hot Cor hcsp. Starting at 42 and working up .5 grn increments until 45.5. I didn't like the way 46 grns looked. 45.5 is compressed and I didn't wanna go any further. (Speer 15th says 47 max with IMI brass) That would have probably put me 1/2 to 3/4 up the neck). I will stop shooting whenever the brass tells me and I will know where the top end is for pressure. Whenever I get a chance to go shoot, which feels like never right now.

I said m77s but never what the models are. First up is a Gunsite Scout and the second will be a Hawkeye. Gonna concentrate on the scout first because its my favorite rifle to shoot.

 

[Bfh_auto]

The standard of case volume measurement is with water, not powder. The issue with using powder, and particularly Lincoln Logs like IMR4064 (for those of you who are old enough to know what Lincoln Logs are... ) is the volume of the powder can change depending on a number of factors, including charge drop, vibration, and settling. It is not a good standard.

My two and the year olds play with Lincoln logs...

I agree. The charge appears to be very different from a dumps charge and a stored charge of 4064.
If I recall correctly my Winchester brass vs NATO brass was just over one grain different for the same velocity average using 168s.

 

[Charlie98]

Gonna concentrate on the scout first because its my favorite rifle to shoot.

Just be aware, with that shorter barrel, something a little faster... like IMR3031... might work a little better, depending on the bullet weight. With IMR3031 and the 150's, it's very unlikely you would wind up with a compressed load, either... something I try to avoid.

 

[TheClasonater]

Just be aware, with that shorter barrel, something a little faster... like IMR3031... might work a little better, depending on the bullet weight. With IMR3031 and the 150's, it's very unlikely you would wind up with a compressed load, either... something I try to avoid.

This is something I thought hard about. It came down to availability. I intend to give it a try in the future when I come across it for even a reasonable price. I have noticed its versatility.

 

[z7]

LC machine gun fired brass is tough as an old pine knot to get sized properly. Anneal, small based die, lots of good sizing lube and see how it goes

I had better luck with Winchester brass vs lc because I was unable to get the mg fired stuff to have consistent neck tension and shoulder bump, even with 2-3 shots out of my bolt gun and annealing

it does work though, I was getting about 3/4- 1” groups at 100 with Lc, 1/2” to 3/4” with Winchester brass

LC does have less capacity as well, start low and work up

 

[FLIGHT762]

View attachment 1042625

From somewhere online...

Sides (is what they call this the "Web?") should be thicker, too.

This is 223 / 5.56, not 7.62X51. I had some of that Federal commercial 223 with the thin webs. I made a tool that measured the web and tossed out the cases that measured less than .175".

A tutorial here if anyone is interested:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/-/42-276154/?page=1

 

[Swampman]

Main thing I worry about with any military cases is incipient case head separation from being fired in an mg with poorly set headspace.

I've tossed hundreds of cases over the years that still had the original crimped in primers.

I highly suggest a paper clip or otoscope check even on known once fired mil brass unless it's match stuff.

 

[TheClasonater]

So... none of it is match. I will start using the paper clip on it. This stuff came to me free so I do intend to use it, but if it becomes miserable, I can always sell it.

I am torn on win brass sometimes. Multiple cases in the last lot of factory stuff I shot in another caliber had flash holes and primer pockets off center. I didn't catch one of them and now am waiting on another FL sizing die decapping pin Not the first time but frustrating. Also found the silvertip to be a little harder to work sometimes.

The next work up, a 300 Win Mag, will be Rem brass, which I tend to generally like, but seems softer to me anyway. But I don't load to the volume you all do.

 

[AJC1]

So... none of it is match. I will start using the paper clip on it. This stuff came to me free so I do intend to use it, but if it becomes miserable, I can always sell it.

I am torn on win brass sometimes. Multiple cases in the last lot of factory stuff I shot in another caliber had flash holes and primer pockets off center. I didn't catch one of them and now am waiting on another FL sizing die decapping pin Not the first time but frustrating. Also found the silvertip to be a little harder to work sometimes.

The next work up, a 300 Win Mag, will be Rem brass, which I tend to generally like, but seems softer to me anyway. But I don't load to the volume you all do.

Rem brass is definitely softer in the neck. If you knock a piece off the bench, it's back to the expander mandrel to make it round again.

 

[Charlie98]

So... none of it is match. I will start using the paper clip on it. This stuff came to me free so I do intend to use it, but if it becomes miserable, I can always sell it.

Military brass can be a mixed bag. If it was really hammered, it's pretty much junk... I've seen it... but it really depends on where it came from. There is LC brass that very well may have been fired through civilian rifles because both loaded LC and LC brass was/is available on the civilian market... I have both of those, too. There can be issues with military-sourced once-fired brass (not only LC headstamp, but others, including WCC (Winchester,) PMJ or PS (PMC,) and others...) not only because of what it was fired in (worn out machine guns,) but also how it was treated after the firing cycle as it made it's way through the federal logistic system and finally into the hands of whatever civilian entity that buys it as scrap.

As an example, I bought 2K cases from a commercial processor... once-fired LC, etc, fully processed, ready to load. There were about 5 different headstamps in the lot, and each were whacked up into sub-lots... that is LC06, LC07, etc, etc. Each had their own set of issues. All of the WCC neck cracked on the 2nd or 3rd firing (brittle brass.) The PMJ had some early case head separations, but what was left is still in service... for now. The biggest problem was with the LC... case head fractures, we are talking splits through the case head, venting gas into the action and blowing out the magazine. Long story short, I'm convinced this brass was contaminated somehow after firing, during storage, before it reached the final buying customer... where it was processed and then sold. In the end, I scrapped everything except the PMJ brass... and I may scrap it next, depending on how it performs the next cycle.

Moral of the story is... once-fired brass can be great, or it can be a royal pain. If you start working with it, and it proves difficult... or dangerous, as it did in my case... stop the process and evaluate what is going on. Don't be afraid to scrap brass that is questionable and move on. It was this experience for me that changed my policy on rifle brass... I no longer use anyone else's 'once fired' brass unless I know the specific source of where it came from, and I prefer to just use my brass... either virgin brass, or MY once-fired brass from factory ammos. That's just me, however.

 

[redcon1]

Because NATO 7.62mm brass is designed to be fired through belt fed MG's, which put a lot more strain on a case, particularly in feeding and extraction.

Not only was it designed to be fired out of a machine gun, it almost certainly was fired out of a machine gun which is a very violent process and worth considering. When the MG fires, the case expands in the chamber to seal out escaping gasses just as it would in any other gun except in the MG or even a semi-auto rifle, the bolt is flying to the rear as the case is expanding and then snapping back so the base of the case will "bulge" in a way that doesn't happen in a bolt gun. What's more, MGs have generous chambers and this exacerbates the problem. The thicker web helps with this but IMO, and this opinion has been hotly contested, it makes sense to run your LC once fired cases through a small base resizing die the first time you size them. It is also generally accepted that you should reduce your starting powder charge by ~5% due to the decreased case capacity but of course you'll find people that don't. The problem is further exacerbated when you use a temperature sensitive powder like BLC2 and you develop your near max load in lake city brass with BLC2 powder in the cool fall weather and then take it to the range in July when it's 105 degrees and your bolt starts sticking for some reason. Something else I have noticed with it is that it is pretty tough to trim the first time compared to commercial brass (with a forster case trimmer at least). I ended up buy the Giraud triway cutter and a RCBS case prep station because it was all such a giant PIA and that made life so much easier. If you're reloading your once fired LC brass for a semi-auto which is what I mostly do, it get's even more problematic because you need to size the cases a little more than if you were shooting out of a bolt gun. I haven't loaded any 7.62 in a while but I'm itching to do so. I always had outstanding accuracy with 40.8 gr of Varget and 168 grain AMAX and LC once fired brass but velocity sucked out of my 16" barrel so I'm experimenting with TAC and various 125-135 grain pills. I got a 125 grain Nosler ballistic tip up to like 2,997 fps with TAC. accuracy was probably acceptable 9maybe 1.25 MOA-1.5 MOA) but not as good as the 168s which were like 2270 fps with the 40.8 gr of Varget but most definitely sub MOA all day long. I'm hoping to work up to an accuracy node with the Noslers and get them closer to the 168s and over 3,000 fps out of that 16" barrel.

 

[TheClasonater]

Redcon, thanks for the reply. It will be for bolt guns only. Once I FINALLY got my sizing die on the money, (stripped a set screw ) every case goes into that rifle with a snug bolt throw, not hard, but nice and snug. Good feeling.

I backed off the charge one grain to start and have about eight loaded up incrementally to find pressure. Its 8 instead of ten because the book max would have been overly compressed, so I stopped. Not trying to push it, if I don't see pressure, I won't go anymore anyway. Might be able to get out next weekend to try her out. I do have blc2, but am saving it for other calibers. Last can of varget I saw in my own eyes was over two years ago, and I thought na, another paycheck and I'll try it out. That turned out well.

 

[Random 8]

Varget is a good powder, but I swore the stuff off after the last panic. Switched that slot over to IMR 4064 which I was already using for my military metric calibers and I have never looked back. IMR 4064 covers soup to nuts, and seems to be an easy powder to find a good load for, and weathers shortages relatively well.

 

[Walkalong]

I have found imr 4895 as good . But 4064
is my goto powder for a 308.

You can't go wrong with either one in the .308, but IMR-4895 meters better, so a lot of folks back in the day would use 4895 if they were dropping charges, and 4064 if they were weighing charges.

You don't need hot, or really even max, loads to be very accurate and kill deer dead as a hammer. Not at max on loads for either of these rifles. One's for hunting, one's for targets.

 

[CWTISME]

I have been running Military brass through my M1 for years now. I bought 1000 and it is mostly Lake city . Because I have an M1 I need to run it thru a small base sizing die otherwise it gets stuck in the chamber . To do this I first use a standard die then the small base . I swag the primer pocket if it needs it . I have a small go/nogo gage for that ..They don't always need it . I like middle of the road loads using 3031,4064 ,4895 N150 but my favorite is Varget. I have no signs of pressure at all.. It is thicker and since the outside has to fit the chamber the thicker is all inside . I just don't run them hot . Without looking I think I am around 2400 FPS.

 

[Charlie98]

and I thought na, another paycheck and I'll try it out. That turned out well.

I did that with TAC. 'Yea, yea, sure, sure... I'll grab a can next week.' Took me almost 2 years to finally get my grubby hands on a can...

 

[AJC1]

There are people who load 308 at or over max all the time. They are trying to keep a bullet supersonic at extended ranges for matches. If you do not have that specific need. Their are tons of gun sports, and knowing what the primary discipline of the person giving advice matters. They all try and help but they will bias to their discipline and experience.

Varget is a great powder no argument there, but you can be served equally well by others depending on your needs. Is temprature stabilized powder your biggest need, then stick to extruded powders. 4064 fits that criteria. Are you shooting 165 class and less bullets ar comp will be as good or better for your needs. Shooting 110 varmit bullets then benchmark is your ticket. 8208xbr fits as well between those. Their are a ton of powders and many that are very temprature tollerate.

 

[redcon1]

Varget is a good powder, but I swore the stuff off after the last panic. Switched that slot over to IMR 4064 which I was already using for my military metric calibers and I have never looked back. IMR 4064 covers soup to nuts, and seems to be an easy powder to find a good load for, and weathers shortages relatively well.

I'll be using Varget for a while. It always seems to give me the best accuracy but rarely gives me the best velocities. I'm really liking Tac too. I don't think I've ever even tried 4064. The way things are going these days, I'm hesitant to load any of it up. I'm thinking I should just sit on it until it's worth more than gold.

 

[JFrank]

I’m somewhat of a 308 guy working with several powders and bullets for competing and now just hunting.
I’ve never used or needed more than 50 cases at any one time so taking on all the extra work involved with prepping and sizing military brass and ordering small base dies then feeling the case resist sizing is just too much hassle considering the ease of buying a 50 box of good brass that will last a long time with consistent results comparatively speaking.

I find the Imr 4064 powder to be an excellent powder for this caliber as it doesn’t feel as sharp of recoil compared to RL-15, Varget or H4895 and very accurate, despite the claims of Lincoln logs i find that it really isn’t that much bigger.

 

[TheClasonater]

The fifty pieces Ive worked on for this will probably last me a good while. Still haven't gone to the range which drives me nuts to test this out. They were free so a little extra work wasn't all that big of a deal. Just wanted to venture into something and learn while doing it. Plus I love that Gunsite Scout. Handy little rifle.

And ya, I'm just gonna stay away from varget. AR Comp would be nice but I only got so much monies at the moment. I am still interested in IMR 3031 though. If I come across it I'll pick up a can (and not say ill wait). I want a 25-06 too and an excuse to buy Retumbo, and the list goes on and on.


4064 is what I originally started using for 30-30, 8x57, and knew someday for 308 when I was ready to put in the time. Even tried it in 204 Ruger but held off once things started getting tight. I got a bunch of Reloder 10x to get through. Which is another middle of the road powder that gets very little love in manuals.

Whatever velocities I get, I get. Not shooting at Wooly mammoths out here. I won't bat an eye taking that out for elk either.

 

[TheClasonater]

Seemed super dirty in the 204 though.

 

[Charlie98]

Seemed super dirty in the 204 though.

Then it wasn't in it's happy place... sounds like it was too slow for your particular application.

If you have RL10x, I would try that in the Scout over IMR4064, honestly.